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  1. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:27am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    Why should someone so obviously full of **** teaching such obvious trash be treated with any respect?
    for several reasons:

    1) i actually interact with these guys in real life. i happen to know that they can all fight well in the standup range, and don't teach garbage in their standup classes.

    2) we don't know that it is "obvious garbage" until we see it fail against a real shot. many unconventional techniques don't look like they would do much, but some of them end up having value. i prefer a "wait and see" approach. this won't happen if we call them names and make it so they don't want to come spar at a throwdown.

    3) i think that there should be constructive questioning of the clip, rather than comments like "that sucks" or "it's obvious garbage" that offer no argument at all and reveal the closed mind of the person posting. i'm talking about saying "the person executing the shot breaks several of the rules of a proper shot, including leading with his head rather than his hip, and not putting his head on the outside of the opponent's hip allowing the grabbing of the face and makin g it easy for the opponent to grab his face and peel him off" <-- referring to the last section of the clip. my point is that we can still be critical without coming off as assholes.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:36am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    yes, sifu sharif bey is from the yee's association, and is a very good teacher, and a good stand up fighter. no one should doubt his striking skills at all. i have no reference for his ability to do groundfighting.

    i don't want to comment on this too much other than to say that it's pretty clear that the person shooting on him isn't executing a proper shot. i would very much like to see him do this technique against a competitive wrestler.
    I agree.

    if we could avoid getting adversarial it would be great to get some of these guys to attend a throwdown so we could see how these hold up against the grapplers who show up. i will work on this, but would appreciate if we could keep the style bashing to a minimum, and the comments constructive so we can foster an environment that helps everyone improve their training and keep an open mind.
    Now, this is why these sub forums get flack. This is one of the few times I have to disagree. I've seen you become very adversarial yourself. So, is this sudden change because it is someone you know? Is it because it is your style? If it is, that isn't fair it is quite hypocritical. No one has said anything about the striking.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:40am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    for several reasons:

    1) i actually interact with these guys in real life. i happen to know that they can all fight well in the standup range, and don't teach garbage in their standup classes.
    The grappling is brought up which isn't part of original Hung. Now the fact they are teaching shoot defenses is silly and it doesn't matter how good they strike. This is like the argument with DTT. Putting in grappling in a striking style is ridiculous.

    2) we don't know that it is "obvious garbage" until we see it fail against a real shot. many unconventional techniques don't look like they would do much, but some of them end up having value. i prefer a "wait and see" approach. this won't happen if we call them names and make it so they don't want to come spar at a throwdown.
    Yes, we do. Don't mix their striking ability with grappling.

    3) i think that there should be constructive questioning of the clip, rather than comments like "that sucks" or "it's obvious garbage" that offer no argument at all and reveal the closed mind of the person posting. i'm talking about saying "the person executing the shot breaks several of the rules of a proper shot, including leading with his head rather than his hip, and not putting his head on the outside of the opponent's hip allowing the grabbing of the face and makin g it easy for the opponent to grab his face and peel him off" <-- referring to the last section of the clip. my point is that we can still be critical without coming off as assholes.
    Okay, I know it is because it is people you know annd that is fine. Still, just because they are good strikers doesn't mean they should teach anti-grappling. Which is what both groups are now doing.
  4. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:48am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Now, this is why these sub forums get flack. This is one of the few times I have to disagree. I've seen you become very adversarial yourself. So, is this sudden change because it is someone you know? Is it because it is your style? If it is, that isn't fair it is quite hypocritical. No one has said anything about the striking.
    perhaps adversarial was a poor choice of word.

    what i am getting at is that i think we would do much better in being specific in our criticisms of the clip, rather than have this thread fill up with a bunch of "lol they suck" comments, as i think that they lead to people showing up at a throwdown with an "i want to bust somebody's head open" mentality, rather than a more constructive "i want to see if what i've been working on works against a trained grappler" attitude.

    i have been thinking about this a lot, and think that we should take this approach in general on this site, as the single greatest reason that communication seems to break down is the number of BJJ white belts who post dumb comments on this board thinking that they are UFC champions cause they recently joined a BJJ class.

    if you sense a difference in my attitude towards these guys specifically it's just that i happen to know that if we get them into "head busting" mode, they are more than capable of hurting someone, which i think no one wants to happen.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:53am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    also, i think that there are 2 distinct possibilities here:

    1) the defenses shown work against a proper shot. (i don't think this is the case, but i can't KNOW this without seeing it.)

    2) they don't realize that the defense won't work because they have not pressure tested them against trained grapplers. this could be helped by getting them to come to a throwdown and try them.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:56am


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    [...] they don't realize that the defense won't work because they have not pressure tested them against trained grapplers. this could be helped by getting them to come to a throwdown and try them.
    This is also where I stand on this. I think these guys are sincere in their martial intent, and can thus be helped by exposure to friendly testing by trained grapplers -- especially in the safe environment of a TD. Again, I think that would be the best thing...
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:56am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The BJJ white belt excuse is just as degrading to Martial Arts as the arrogant CMAer.

    It is slowly turning into the new refrain from traditionalists. Tuf noobs and BJJ white belts screw up communication which may be true. Yet, it breaks down because just as many so called traditionalists come here with the same damn attitude.

    I mean when I correct Boyd or even Cracky on their comments they tend to listen if it is valid. I mean I can name about 10 newbies right now spewing the same dumb **** as tuf noobs.

    I think it less what you and Jack say and more arrogance. Good luck on trying to get them to a throw down.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 11:59am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh and maybe next time shoot a PM then maybe I can move the thread. I can respect trying to enlighten people.

    Yet, when it looks kind of hypocritical I got to speak my mind.


    Yes, I read the other thread. It has a different tone then this one.
  9. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 12:06pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As vitriolic as he can be, I have to side with Boyd here. After the whole Wing Chun debacle I think I understand now where grapplers are coming from. These defenses are reductive and maybe even a little insulting to grapplers because they seem to assume that grappling is as simplistic as is displayed here. That and the fact that it comes off as conceited to some that these strikers can't bring bring themselves to admit that their styles aren't complete. I've never read anywhere in Savate, Muay Thai, or reputable Karate where they claim to have any kind of ground defense. Conversely, I've never read anywhere where someone who does Judo or BJJ claims to have superior striking!

    Sometimes I wonder if the excessive pride from Chinese styles like Wing Chun and Hung Gar regarding groundfighting is somehow related to the longstanding resentment between Chinese and Japanese cultures. Maybe they just can't bring themselves to admit they might need Japanese styles (judo, jiu-jutsu) in order to compete? If that's the case, why not cross-train in Shuai Jiao? More complete training with all the nationalistic goodness. But what do I know? I do believe that if these styles would just come out and say "Ok, you got us, we're not complete" that would go a long way toward ending these lumbering debates
  10. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 12:15pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    The BJJ white belt excuse is just as degrading to Martial Arts as the arrogant CMAer.

    It is slowly turning into the new refrain from traditionalists. Tuf noobs and BJJ white belts screw up communication which may be true. Yet, it breaks down because just as many so called traditionalists come here with the same damn attitude.

    I mean when I correct Boyd or even Cracky on their comments they tend to listen if it is valid. I mean I can name about 10 newbies right now spewing the same dumb **** as tuf noobs.

    I think it less what you and Jack say and more arrogance. Good luck on trying to get them to a throw down.
    yes, you're right, the arrogant CMAer is just as bad as the obnoxious BJJ newb. you may notice that i am quick to point out arrogance when i see it from a CMAer, as it takes away their ability to complain about attacks from BJJ/MMA newbs, since i am "one of their own" as it were.

    and i wasn't trying to say that boyd doesn't know what he's talking about, as i respect his opinion a lot and welcome his input on this thread. in fact i'm hoping that if he chooses to post in this thread again that he gives technical critiques of the method from a BJJ perspective, as he is much better prepared to offer them than i am.

    what i was hoping to do was to cut off the "duh, that sucks, lol" posts before they start, as i feel that those types of posts offer nothing to the discussion at hand.

    look at the "master jules" thread and how every time it has gotten adversarial it has been because of either a troll or a newb spouting off, and that once tom kagan started purging the stupidity and sambosteve and others were posting intelligent questions in a more respectful tone we were able to get much farther in getting info (not that i think that thread has been fully investigated, but it's getting there, and i think that jules now has a much better understanding of our motivations.)
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
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