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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 1:09am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Training in weightlifting to be a better grappler or fighter does not make sense. Just because you are strong in the weight room does not mean you are strong on the mat. No way,man. Your friend is wrong. We have had guys who can Deadlift 200kg easy come in and try a wrestling class. They where ready to pass out after our warmup. WHich is 10 mins straight of bear crawls, sprints and double leg takedwon drills.
    This is the part of your post they are addressing.

    Did you roll with this guy or not?
  2. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 1:30am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you retarded Bosco??

    Are you arguing for what Epicurus (or the MA'ist who just trans BJJ non-competitively) or just the average fighter now?


    Strength trainng, bodybuilding, learning a second language, masturbating, **** even salsa lessons can come at the expense of skill and conditioning work UNLESS YOU ARE A COMPETITIVE ATHLETE!!!!!

    Dear God the OP is not a competitive athlete by choice right now and thats what was being debated in part by me and some others. You are too stupid to see this and instead argue against what you want to hear.

    If he skips all his conditioning work, follows a mainly bodybuilding lifestyle, spends the rest of his free time watching anime, and attends a BJJ class 3x a week who cares? It would be beneficial to him and his goals.

    When we have a thread about sports conditioning for competitive athletes we will let you know so you can keep spouting the same crap that we all know.

    You have fucking hammer and see all these nails, so you see a god damed screw and start smashing on it to paraphrase some old China-man.
  3. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 2:08am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't understand all this: No muscle, all technique! That you see a lot in martial arts. Muscle and strength are attributes that can give you an edge over your opponent, and if you have such an edge, why not use it? I'm pretty sure boxing coaches don't tell tall students "Don't use your reach! Use technique!" and that grappling instructors wouldn't tell a stockier, heavier person "Don't use your weight to hold him down, use technique!" So why is it that you can have your gi ripped right off your shoulders if you are so much as caught with a dumbell?
  4. Epicurus is offline

    I'm grindin' 'till I'm tired...

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 1:25pm


     Style: Judo. Some BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LI GUY 1

    If he skips all his conditioning work, follows a mainly bodybuilding lifestyle, spends the rest of his free time watching anime, and attends a BJJ class 3x a week who cares? It would be beneficial to him and his goals.
    It's like you've known me all my life!
    "[Fighting for Points] is doubtless very pretty, and invariably draws applause, but preferences should always be given to blows that do some business, to good straight hits that do something toward finishing the fight.
    A man who has carefully trained for brilliant tapping play, will find himself considerably out of it in case he is called upon to do any real work."
    -A.J. Newton, Boxing.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 8:21pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    Alright, I get it.

    Being a competitive fighter and training BJJ 5 times per week is not the original posters goal. His goals are to pack on more muscle, get stronger and do BJJ in the off time. SO yes, based on his needs that would be fine. Based on his needs and goals.
    He wants to get to 200 hundred pounds. Why the hell are you picturing John Cena? He wants to add 20lbs to his frame. You are one of those former TMAers that can't get over the whole strength doesn't matter myth aren't you.
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 10:31pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    Alright, I get it.
    You don't get it. You are only conceding after you realized how off the tangent you were. It took, what, over a dozen posts for you to get it. Next time you post an opinion, at the very least, give the OP the courtesy of reading his post.

    And even if the OP were a competitive, world class grappler, this bullshit about weightlifting not being necessary or not fundamentally important for training, that's bullcrap.

    To put the final nail in the coffin, this is a sample weightlifing training routine used in the 80's by the Oklahoma State University Wrestling team:

    http://www.strengthcats.com/classicwrestling.htm

    One look at this weightlifting program used, off-season, by competitive wrestlers, and you'll see it's not that different from your plain-vanilla weightlifting/powerlifting programs.

    And this is what Joey Seay and Jerry Palmieri have to say on the subject (from the book Getting Stronger" by Bill Pearl, published in 1986)

    Specifically, wrestlers need hip strength and power since many wrestling moves originate from the hips. Strength is also needed in the muscles responsible for pulling movements: biceps, forearms, mid-back and upper back."

    Just to give some perspective, Joe Seay was the Head Wrestling Coach at Oklahoma State University and the Head Coach of the 1985 U.S.A. World Team, and Jerry Palimeri was Head Assistant Strength and Conditioning Coach at Oklahoma State University.

    World class wrestlers, who do this **** almost for a living, doing weightlifting as a fundamental part of their training. Yeah Mr Bosco, your wrestling coach is right. I'm an idiot.

    -- EDIT --

    More meat to the debate for any retard who still believes weightlifting has no place for a competitive grappler/wrestler.

    http://www.worldjudo.org/judojimmypedro.htm

    Q: what weight training exercise would you suggest for judo?

    Jimmy Pedro: I would say it would be a complex which would be a squat, or a push jerk without putting the bar down you do about six repetitions of that. It takes endurance, it helps explosiveness over a long period of time and that's one of the main exercises I use in my weightlifting routine.



    http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/variables.shtml

    STRENGTH Notwithstanding the "Maximum efficiency, minimum effort" motto of the Kodokan, a great deal of raw strength is required to play Judo at high levels. Best developed off the mat through a well structured weight training system using the cycling or periodization concept. Development of absolute strength will positively affect muscular endurance and should positively affect power as well. It has a negative effect on aerobic endurance. A well developed musculature will additionally be required to minimize injury.



    From the International Judo Federation Website:

    http://www.ijf.org/corner/qCornerVie...Code=EK&Idx=38

    Judo competition at the highest levels requires not only great technical skills; it requires great athletic skills as well. Judo athletes need to have considerable stamina and strength. In many championships, athletes who win medals compete against five, six, or seven opponents in a single day, pushing themselves to the limits of their abilities in each match. These matches require that the athlete have enough stamina and strength to last an entire match at high intensity, and to do multiple rounds.

    For this reason, serious judo competitors often supplement their daily judo training with intense programs of cardiovascular conditioning and strength improvement through weight training. For example, national team members of many countries engage in a serious running program to build their cardiovascular endurance. In addition, many engage in heavy weight training programs to improve their strength. It is on top of this supplemental training that judo practice occurs, often twice a day, once for technical development, and the other strictly for free practice or randori.


    GrappleArts article on Weightlifting and Martial Arts

    http://www.grapplearts.com/Basic-Weight-Lifting.htm

    In the not-so-distant past weight training was discouraged for martial artists. "It will make you slow", "it will make you muscle-bound", and "all you need is technique" were common opinions from the 'experts'.

    Times have changed! Athletes in almost every sport lift weights now. Coaches and trainers recognize that it will make their athletes stronger, faster, and more resilient to injury. It is now understood that weight training complements and improves good technique.

    From "Judo Training Methods: A Sourcebook" By Takahiko Ishikawa and Donn F. Draeger (yes, teh Draeger), 1966.

    Weight training is essential to championship level Judo performance in that it will, like no other existing means, improve posture and strenghten postural muscles. Judo is always concerned with a minimum expenditure of energy and the body posture is the basic source of this economy. Good posture by definition in Judo, is the most efficient way to carry the muscles, bones and organs of the body in order to most effectively apply Judo technique. Weight training movements correctly performed under sensible application will also develop the muscle and bring the body into muscular symmetry. Fatigue is accentuated in underdeveloped muscle areas, and act as the "weak link" in our Judo performance. An assymetrical body will result in inefficiency in Judo.



    GrappleArts weblog, May 23, 2004
    http://www.grapplearts.com/weblog-ar...01_archive.htm

    Many grapplers and martial artists lift weights to make them stronger, faster,
    and more explosive. It is widely accepted that weight training complements and
    improves good technique. Being stronger, faster, and more explosive is a good
    thing, but the best reason to pump iron is to increase resistance to injury.



    And if you want to get a bit academic, read this article titled "Weight Training for Jiu Jitsu" by Nicolas Ratamess, MS, CSCS from Ball State University.

    http://www.grapplersgym.com/public/i...20workouts.pdf



    From the article "Developing Takedown Strenght" by Mike Demko
    http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/takedown.htm

    Various strength and conditioning methods are used by grapplers and combative athletes across the board. These include but are not limited to: standard weight training, calisthenics, kettlebells, yoga, olympic weightlifting, plyometrics, powerlifting, and what can only be described as non standard training methods.

    Should I go on? Should I keep going?
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 9/13/2007 11:02pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2007 8:16pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Threads cleaned. Sorry guys, I moved a few of your posts to trollshido (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6024), included several of my own- I tried to keep those relevant to the topic, an attempt to salvage the thread. Oh well.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/17/2007 9:35pm

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     TryKickboxingNow.com - Free Internet Marketing for Kickboxing Programs! Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After reading this cluster **** and seeing El Macho clean it up, hears my advice. Its exactly like LI GUY 1's. Do BJJ 3x a week and lift according to a schedule that gets you up in weight. Since putting on mass is your main goal right now, I would find a program suited for that first, then add in any BJJ you can around that. Try to go to BJJ at least one or twice a week though, it will help keep you up to date and I doubt 2 practices a week would rob you of any strength gains. You'll actually be happy realizing how well your strength is coming over to your grappling. Hopefully. Plus its good cardio to keep you from getting too chunky while adding the muscle.
  9. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2007 3:02am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't find a post I thought I had where I said you my want to lift in the ~8 rep range, small rest in betwen sets (~2 minutes), and maybe sometimes (not everyday, and swith up the bodyparts) go to failure. That would be better for hypertrophy me thinks along with low rep heavy stuff also.

    Adding in some bodybuilding approach because, well the do gain mass.
  10. Ka-Bar is offline
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    is a Godd*mn Federale!

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2008 1:36am

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     Style: Clinchology: Judo & MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hate to resurrect an old thread, but it popped up in my search and the title was pretty much exactly the same as my question. Should I train 3 hours a night, 5-6 nights a week or should I train 3 hours a night 3 times a week and lift 3 times a week?

    I'm still a noob in my core arts, judo, bjj and MT. If I had to choose one goal over the other, it would be teh s1x p4ck abz, in other words, weight-loss/body re-comp.

    I work full-time and take classes part-time, so lifting in favor of training would give me an extra 6 hours a week, but at this level, I should be getting as much mat/sparring time as possible, no?

    Rudy Reyes > Bear Grylls
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