You don't get it. You are only conceding after you realized how off the tangent you were. It took, what, over a dozen posts for you to get it. Next time you post an opinion, at the very least, give the OP the courtesy of reading his post.
Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
And even if the OP were a competitive, world class grappler, this bullshit about weightlifting not being necessary or not fundamentally important for training, that's bullcrap.
To put the final nail in the coffin, this is a sample weightlifing training routine used in the 80's by the Oklahoma State University Wrestling team:
One look at this weightlifting program used, off-season, by competitive wrestlers, and you'll see it's not that different from your plain-vanilla weightlifting/powerlifting programs.
And this is what Joey Seay and Jerry Palmieri have to say on the subject (from the book Getting Stronger" by Bill Pearl, published in 1986)
Specifically, wrestlers need hip strength and power since many wrestling moves originate from the hips. Strength is also needed in the muscles responsible for pulling movements: biceps, forearms, mid-back and upper back."
Just to give some perspective, Joe Seay was the Head Wrestling Coach at Oklahoma State University and the Head Coach of the 1985 U.S.A. World Team, and Jerry Palimeri was Head Assistant Strength and Conditioning Coach at Oklahoma State University.
World class wrestlers, who do this **** almost for a living, doing weightlifting as a fundamental part of their training. Yeah Mr Bosco, your wrestling coach is right. I'm an idiot.
-- EDIT --
More meat to the debate for any retard who still believes weightlifting has no place for a competitive grappler/wrestler.
Q: what weight training exercise would you suggest for judo?
Jimmy Pedro: I would say it would be a complex which would be a squat, or a push jerk without putting the bar down you do about six repetitions of that. It takes endurance, it helps explosiveness over a long period of time and that's one of the main exercises I use in my weightlifting routine.
STRENGTH Notwithstanding the "Maximum efficiency, minimum effort" motto of the Kodokan, a great deal of raw strength is required to play Judo at high levels. Best developed off the mat through a well structured weight training system using the cycling or periodization concept. Development of absolute strength will positively affect muscular endurance and should positively affect power as well. It has a negative effect on aerobic endurance. A well developed musculature will additionally be required to minimize injury.
From the International Judo Federation Website:
Judo competition at the highest levels requires not only great technical skills; it requires great athletic skills as well. Judo athletes need to have considerable stamina and strength. In many championships, athletes who win medals compete against five, six, or seven opponents in a single day, pushing themselves to the limits of their abilities in each match. These matches require that the athlete have enough stamina and strength to last an entire match at high intensity, and to do multiple rounds.
For this reason, serious judo competitors often supplement their daily judo training with intense programs of cardiovascular conditioning and strength improvement through weight training. For example, national team members of many countries engage in a serious running program to build their cardiovascular endurance. In addition, many engage in heavy weight training programs to improve their strength. It is on top of this supplemental training that judo practice occurs, often twice a day, once for technical development, and the other strictly for free practice or randori.
GrappleArts article on Weightlifting and Martial Arts
In the not-so-distant past weight training was discouraged for martial artists. "It will make you slow", "it will make you muscle-bound", and "all you need is technique" were common opinions from the 'experts'.
Times have changed! Athletes in almost every sport lift weights now. Coaches and trainers recognize that it will make their athletes stronger, faster, and more resilient to injury. It is now understood that weight training complements and improves good technique.
From "Judo Training Methods: A Sourcebook" By Takahiko Ishikawa and Donn F. Draeger (yes, teh Draeger), 1966.
Weight training is essential to championship level Judo performance in that it will, like no other existing means, improve posture and strenghten postural muscles. Judo is always concerned with a minimum expenditure of energy and the body posture is the basic source of this economy. Good posture by definition in Judo, is the most efficient way to carry the muscles, bones and organs of the body in order to most effectively apply Judo technique. Weight training movements correctly performed under sensible application will also develop the muscle and bring the body into muscular symmetry. Fatigue is accentuated in underdeveloped muscle areas, and act as the "weak link" in our Judo performance. An assymetrical body will result in inefficiency in Judo.
GrappleArts weblog, May 23, 2004
Many grapplers and martial artists lift weights to make them stronger, faster,
and more explosive. It is widely accepted that weight training complements and
improves good technique. Being stronger, faster, and more explosive is a good
thing, but the best reason to pump iron is to increase resistance to injury.
And if you want to get a bit academic, read this article titled "Weight Training for Jiu Jitsu" by Nicolas Ratamess, MS, CSCS from Ball State University.
From the article "Developing Takedown Strenght" by Mike Demko
Various strength and conditioning methods are used by grapplers and combative athletes across the board. These include but are not limited to: standard weight training, calisthenics, kettlebells, yoga, olympic weightlifting, plyometrics, powerlifting, and what can only be described as non standard training methods.
Should I go on? Should I keep going?