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  1. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 12:33pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And mat time has its place, but that place is not in place of gym time. So he can do both like everyone else and his BJJ won't explode.
  2. senseipookie is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 1:09pm


     Style: Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, first of all, why do you want to bulk up? Do you want to compete in higher weight classes, or do you just want more muscle mas in general? Because while more strength is definitely a good thing (providing you're not using it as a substitute for good technique), bulk can actually be a detriment in the form of lost speed, flexibility and agility. Especially if you're doing high weight, low rep workouts. When I used to lift fairly heavy weight (even moderate - sets of 12 to 15 reps but I tend to bulk very quickly) I will have lots of power, but move around like a robot.

    As far as cardio goes, definitely do NOT listen to your friend. First of all, cardio work is absolutely essential if you want to last longer than a couple of minutes sparring or rolling. And if you have bulked up, you are moving that much more body weight around, so it's going to be even more effort. And cardio work does NOT reduce size -- only if you replace your resistance training with cardio. But you will have leaner mass if you include both. So you may not cut quite as imposing a picture, but you'll be in better shape overall ((work muscles vs show muscles)

    And there is absolutely no reason to stop your BJJ training to lift - more training=better performance. Period. And if you stop for several months and then go back after adding 20 or 30 pounds that you're not used to rolling with, you may not perform quite the way you remember anyway.

    So bottom line is, if you want to bulk up that's fine. But don't sacrifice training and technique for size because long term that's the surest way to fail. And whatever you do, keep up with cardio/endurance training and flexibility.
  3. Epicurus is offline

    I'm grindin' 'till I'm tired...

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 3:34pm


     Style: Judo. Some BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All right, thanks everyone for the responses!

    The message I am getting is that I should probably just work BJJ classes into a reduced lifting schedule to achieve my goals. That sounds pretty reasonable.

    One thing that is amazing me is how everyone is surprised I want to bulk up. Yes, BJJ and MMA have weight classes, but I do not really have much interest in competing. I train for fitness, fun, and self defense, so why should I worry at all about my weight? I'd like to be larger and stronger than I am (right now I perpetually look like a guy who swims a lot but has let himself get a little soft in the last three weeks). I'll be the first to admit my weight goal is arbitrary and CERTAINLY not short term. In case anyone is wondering, I'm 6'1", 182 pounds or so. Should I include a photo or something? Anyhow, I want to add weight because what i really want is as much strength as possible, and size is a definite asset in SD. I don't really give two shits about weight categories - maybe someday I will and then I'll switch my program a bit. But please don't worry about it if you are advising me.

    Anyhow, I eat right (though I have trouble eating 200 small meals per day or whatever you're supposed to do), so I don't expect much trouble on the diet front.

    In sum, as it stands now (based on the advice I've gotten here), I will:
    Start BJJ ASAP
    Pick up my cardio bigtime
    Work in lifting around my BJJ schedule

    Sound good?

    ***********************************

    For reference, here is the routine I have been doing about 6 days a week for the past 2 years or so:

    pushups, 3-4 sets of 25-30 (including at least one set of diamond pushups in there)
    Chinups, 3 sets of 8-10 (only added these in the last few months)
    hindu squats, 3 sets of 15
    ab wheel, 3 sets of 7 (from knees) (added these same time as chinups, previously crunches)
    haven't been doing cardio in a long while due to chest pain.
    "[Fighting for Points] is doubtless very pretty, and invariably draws applause, but preferences should always be given to blows that do some business, to good straight hits that do something toward finishing the fight.
    A man who has carefully trained for brilliant tapping play, will find himself considerably out of it in case he is called upon to do any real work."
    -A.J. Newton, Boxing.
  4. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 6:28pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are not competing anytime soon screw cardio! Do your BJJ and lift. You will not gas if you don't do cardio, that is bullshit. Almost no one in my class does extra cardio and they don't gas in our rolling. They are also not competing or going at "competition" speed in our rolls. So all this "do cardio or you can't grapple" is dumb.

    ALso, lifting won't make you slow or robotic, it can maybe but it dosen't automatically. I was actually one of the faster more explosive guys, due to lifting. And I lift heavy low rep in the big 3. Plus some explosive lifting and odd exercises.

    WHat is the reason for you to increase your cardio? Your goals are to train BJJ and get bigger(through weights) right? So I suggest raining BJJ and getting bigger (through weights).
  5. senseipookie is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 8:22pm


     Style: Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Epi - just making sure you weren't trying to bulk up to use strength instead of technique. If you aren't happy with the shape you are in and want to improve that, by all means go for it. Stronger is definitely better. But keep it all in balance with cardio and MA training.

    Li Guy - If you read his OP, his friend told him to stop BJJ training and just bulk up with heavy weights. Most MA training has at least some cardio benefit to it, so if you're doing enough of that, you're still working cardio to an extent. And I don't think anyone said you can't grapple without cardio work, it's that cardio is an important part of fitness that too many people completely ignore.
  6. senseipookie is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 10:10pm


     Style: Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nah, screw that. Conditioning is for pussies. If your arms and pecs are impressive enough no fight will ever last more than a couple of minutes anyway.
  7. Epicurus is offline

    I'm grindin' 'till I'm tired...

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 10:20pm


     Style: Judo. Some BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All this hostility ; )

    I try to train cardio; I just hate it is all. If there was one thing I would be most happy to not work much outside of my MA classes it would be cardio. I certanly have much respect for it.

    Anyway, I know that strength is not an adequate replacement for technique, but I don't intend to suddenly start ignoring technique if I get stronger. I am of the view that technique and stength are both contributors to success in a fight, and if people are equal in one the person with more of the other has the advantage. So I want to be as physically strong as possible given my motivation to exercise and train.

    What kind of cardio work do people recommend beyond rolling?
    "[Fighting for Points] is doubtless very pretty, and invariably draws applause, but preferences should always be given to blows that do some business, to good straight hits that do something toward finishing the fight.
    A man who has carefully trained for brilliant tapping play, will find himself considerably out of it in case he is called upon to do any real work."
    -A.J. Newton, Boxing.
  8. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 10:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    I never said lifting weights was a bad idea. It has it's place. My point was not to confuse your training with that of a weight lifter. That would be a mistake. A weightlifter or power lifter has very different needs to that of a competitive fighter.

    Too bad he is not a competitive fighter. Nor is he aspiring to be one at this point I believe. Hell I see a lot of this when a martial artist asks about lifting. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, not everyone thinks the same? Maybe a BJJ player wants to be big, and places that on a higher priority than his BJJ?

    Now there is nothing wrong with that unless of course he wants to compete.

    So if he is not going to compete anytime soon, and wants to get bigger, than lift and do BJJ. Go for a jog 2x a week just to keep moving and for active recovery. Think about it: what does cardio do for your goals right now? Not much, so incorporate it but just a it until you reach your lifting goals or they change.

    Exra cardio will hinder strength gains I think as when it comes time for hypertrophy you need all those calories.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 11:23pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Epicurus
    Anyway, I know that strength is not an adequate replacement for technique
    Don't worry about that. We know that you don't claim that. Only Bosco seems to think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicurus
    What kind of cardio work do people recommend beyond rolling?
    Right before rolling? That'd be overkills. Your training class should have appropriate warmup and it's the rolling that will provide the best sport-specific conditioning. Additional "cardio" just allows you to roll longer/harder (when you need to roll longer/harder.)
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2007 11:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    Throw into this mix the need for conditioning.
    Please tell me HIS NEED for conditioning? What makes him NEED great cardio?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    I have yet to see anyone loose simply because they failed to Squat that extra 20 pounds. This is why cardio or fitness work is essential. The second you get tired on the mat, your're finished.
    Now we are in the realm of competition. Which is a tangent, but I'll entertain you:

    You might have, how do you know? Do you know everyone's lift stats? Judging cardio is easier than strength by eyesight. I bet squatting 20 extra lbs would have come in handy when you squat 300 and your opponent squats 310. It's just one more advantage you COULD have had but were too narrow minded in training (or you just enjoy the dumbass tag) to take.
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