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  1. soursourapples is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 1:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: aiki jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    kaze arashi ryu

    Hello, i've recently come across some discussions on the net regarding the legitimacy of Kaze Arashi Ryu. Having been training for some time, I am coming to find the hierarchies baffling and discouraging, and have been further discouraged by certain accounts on the internet. The e-budo discussions on this matter seem to have been closed down, so if anyone has information debunking the legitimacy of KAR i would be glad to have a look at it. At the end of the day, as a beginner, I would rather invest my time in learning some form of Aiki-jujutsu or jujutsu with a more stable foundation and heirarchy, as well as knowing that my techniques are based on a solid platform.

    Cheers.
  2. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 1:59pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are these the folks you're looking for more information on?

    http://www.kazearashiryu.org/
  3. soursourapples is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 2:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: aiki jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep. I remember reading some stuff Mark Raugas was discussing on the net a while back, but it went over my head a little. Now he refers to KAR as a modern mix of Kempo, Aikido and Judo, and practices ba gua and koryu bujitsu.
  4. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 2:13pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can still find his posts on E-Budo. You'll need to be a memeber of their site, but once you are simply run a search for "kaze arashi" and you'll turn up a ton of material.

    Edited to Add: I did some digging on Mark Raugas and it appears that he no longer consider's himself to be a practitioner of "kaze arashi ryu" nor that the art by that name has a claim to koryu status. You can find his personal webpage at

    http://www.innerdharma.org/
    Last edited by Fitz; 9/07/2007 2:20pm at .
  5. soursourapples is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 2:45pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: aiki jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thanks a lot...
  6. soursourapples is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 7:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: aiki jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm. I have been disabled from being able to register for whatever reason, same goes for people on other computers i have tried connecting onto. Failing to find this information, could anyone reccomend any good martial arts that are similar? I.E joint-locks, throws etc...
  7. Crazy Horse is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 10:57am


     Style: Sword

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by soursourapples
    could anyone reccomend any good martial arts that are similar? I.E joint-locks, throws etc...
    Not on this thread fella. Go start a new one in Newbietown. It is safe to do so there.
  8. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 1:57pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    soursourapples...

    What "aiki jujutsu" do you study and where and with whom.

    Thank you

    -DH
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  9. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 2:08pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No Japanese ryu-ha calls its Jujutsu/Taijutsu Aikijujutsu except Daito-ryu.
  10. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 2:20pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have no horse to run in this race, I have my own opinions on KAR based upon my own study of Koryu and Gendai budo and don't care to share my conclusions however; for those without an account at E-budo (and new account registrations are disabled at the moment) here is the primary article debunking KAR. If you wish to educate yourself to the author's credentials please do so.

    Kaze Arashi-ryu - A statement from Ellis Amdur 12-01-2005

    There was a recent thread about Kaze Arashi-ryu regarding it's legitimacy. Mark Raugas, a senior practitioner, who is a training partner of mine in Gao Bagua and a personal friend, responded to the questions based on what he knew -the oral traditions of his school as passed down by his teacher. I responded at the imputation several folks made that he was lying - I know my friend as a man of integrity, and so spoke up on his behalf. I also said that I'd seen some photos which he had referred to as supporting his statements (the photos were real, but the identifiers were, I believe, false). On my first viewing of the jujutsu in the system, it did appear to be Meiji period TYPE waza, and that I didn't know what to make of the kenjutsu (which, in fact, I had seen once in a demonstration).

    My stepping in rather stopped the discussion.Don Roley said some complimentary things about my reputation for integrity, for which I thank him, and asked, in essence, if I could check things out. I didn't intend to do so - not in that way, perhaps. In the limited time that I have outside work, family and training, I'm always looking for what is true - and as soon as I discern something as false, I just ignore it. I have not cared to spend the time necessary to examine and debunk in depth.

    Events intervened, however, due to my stepping in the discussion. Prompted by matters that are best discussed by KAR members if they choose, I reviewed two things: a) an account of the various origin stories told about the school b) Five DVD which have the bulk of the syllabus of the school. I will not go into more detail than is necessary here, and I do not care to discuss in any more detail what I post here. It is up to the current and former members of KAR to publicize any evidence they have, but suffice it to say that I have seen evidence to convince me of the following:

    First of all, I am convinced that ALL of the claimed history of KAR is false - not mistakes, not misinterpretations, but fabrications. I do not believe that the art was created in Japan, and I also am convinced that neither Nishiyama nor the majority of the figures cited as senior shihan ever existed. I believe the school started with Mr. Henri Villaire.

    Secondly, I carefully viewed the weapons kata and jujutsu as well, and see it as a pastiche of koryu kata from several prominent schools (derived, I believe, from videos - not actual training) grafted onto aikido type sword/tai-sabaki and movements, elements from aikido and Miyama-ryu, a school which Mr. Villaire is reported to have studied, as well as movements and techniques that are never seen outside of Japanese movies. The grafted on koryu techniques and sections of kata are so unique to the respective ryu that, chained together in one form, it is impossible, in my view, that they could have been independently arrived at. If you see a dancer do fifteen signature movements from a Balanchine choreography, sprinkled within another dance, it's pretty well impossible that someone could have recreated something so unique.

    These elements and waza are, however, executed with profound misunderstanding. In addition, there were elements of etiquette, stance, kamae, oral teachings, ma-ai, the names of the kata and the structure of the kata which absolutely have never appeared in any Japanese school. It would be like seeing a Balinese dancer in toe shoes. Or a claim that Bach played on the harpsichord with marimba hammers.

    I'm outraged on behalf of my friends, both for the years they've spent in dedicated training (there ARE some good technique - their time was not totally wasted), but also that they have found themselves, in good faith, defending a lie. (I stand by my statement that M. Raugas was not lying).

    I still do not agree with the proposition that one should furnish an outsider with the contact information of one's teacher, who may wish to be private for any one of a number of reasons. But the larger issue is this - were I not to post this, I would be supporting something I believe to be a lie. I'm simply here setting the record straight.

    One final point - I am not posting this at the request of any KAR or former KAR member. I am speaking for myself, after forming my own opinion after examining in depth the differing accounts of the oral history, examining at great length the video of the mokuroku, and after becoming privy to documentary evidence which establishes, as far as I am concerned, the fundamental dishonesty at the core of this organization, something that is the responsiblity of the teacher alone.
    As a result of this information, the gentleman mentioned in the first paragraph "Mark Raugas" issued the following statement.
    Mark Raugas 12-01-2005

    Hi All,

    Since I've posted on e-budo before, I'd like to announce that I have formally resigned from the Kaze Arashi group. I wish all my old friends who continue to train under that umbrella the best of luck in their practice.

    Eric: It was great fun training that day and I am glad to have met you in person. I would like to apologize to you and to everyone else I got into internet conflicts with over KAR in the past. Best of luck in your Hontai Yoshin-ryu training.

    Mark
    The enclosed quotes are from an extensive thread.

    -DH
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
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