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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Jan 2003
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    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 4:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by polishillusion
    I mean, I do not mind calling a 6th degree in Judo a 6th degree in Judo if he fights like a 6th degree in Judo.
    .
    (*Tom does a doubletake on who posted the above quote and realizes the irony*)



    The people who PROVE they can compete in a Judo shiai and hang with or defeat Rokudans happen to be ... (drumroll) ... other dan ranks.

    If a Judo n00b walks into a national tournament and does well (because they have equivalent training in another art), they walk out with a MINIMUM of a legitimate Judo brown belt.

    Whatever the requirements might be (fight skill or otherwise) if a person doesn't PROVE they are qualified to hold a Judo ranking, there is no legitimate way you can call that person any legitimate Judo rank regardless of whatever level you think he/she might be able to perform at.

    Anything else is mere speculation, conjecture, hypothetical or whatever else you might want to call it.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. kwoww is offline
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    poser

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    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley / Rochester
    Posts
    1,986

    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 4:27pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But you're not a fraud if you're learning from one. You're just really unlucky and you wasted shitloads of time.
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Jan 2003
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    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 5:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    But you're not a fraud if you're learning from one. You're just really unlucky and you wasted shitloads of time.

    This sounds like something a fraud would say to explain why they were caught.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. kwoww is offline
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    poser

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    Lower Hudson Valley / Rochester
    Posts
    1,986

    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 5:55pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    This sounds like something a fraud would say to explain why they were caught.
    You're only a fraud if you claim to be something you're not. If the guy realizes that he fucked up and moves on, what's the problem?
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Administrator

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    Jan 2005
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    33,752

    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 6:04pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    You're only a fraud if you claim to be something you're not. If the guy realizes that he fucked up and moves on, what's the problem?
    Here we go adding more to mkae it a gray area.

    If your instructor is shady and you don't know, no your aren't shady.

    You start handing out ranks knowing he was shady that makes you shady.

    What if, your instructor obtained ranked rather questionably, but he promoted you rather legit, and you take it serious and are very conscientious about promoting your students, are you or your students a fraud? Any opinions.....
    The students aren't frauds.

    You aren't a fraud if you recently found out.

    You teacher is a fraud if he knew the rank was shady/fraudulent.
  6. sempaiman is offline

    Senior Member

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    Jul 2006
    Location
    West coast
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    1,454

    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 10:06am


     Style: Mixed-Up Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ultimately, aren't all Martial Arts ranks to a point fraudulant. Mosty of all the major systems where founded by guys who automatically became 10th dans because they where the originators and rank was passed on from that point....
  7. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
    FickleFingerOfFate's Avatar

    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Up in your grill.
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 10:11am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sempaiman
    Ultimately, aren't all Martial Arts ranks to a point fraudulant. Mosty of all the major systems where founded by guys who automatically became 10th dans because they where the originators and rank was passed on from that point....

    Ultimately, are we all aomeba or primates, since that's where we came from, "Originally"?
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  8. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
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    New York, NY USA
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    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 10:20am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Integrity isn't an arbitrary or a fickle concept.

    Fraud is most commonly thought of in the context of the intent of deception on the part of the perpetrator. However, the reality is that if the result is the same as if you intended to deceive, it's still fraud regardless of whether a person knowingly committed it. (If memory serves, this is called "constructive fraud".)

    So, while not knowing the extent of a fraud a person may be unknowingly part of might mitigate a large degree of needed retribution/atonement, they are still a fraud.

    Quote Originally Posted by sempaiman
    Ultimately, aren't all Martial Arts ranks to a point fraudulant. Mosty of all the major systems where founded by guys who automatically became 10th dans because they where the originators and rank was passed on from that point....

    No. Founders are supposed to be dead. Decades of history passing by determine who is ultimately a founder. Such shifts in what style a person allegedly "founded" or practiced is properly determined in retrospect. It is not done by going forward from the point were a practitioner proclaims themselves a progenitor of the newest, baddest BigDickDo Martial Art style.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
    FickleFingerOfFate's Avatar

    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Up in your grill.
    Posts
    5,645

    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 10:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Integrity isn't an arbitrary or a fickle concept.

    Fraud is most commonly thought of in the context of the intent of deception on the part of the perpetrator. However, the reality is that if the result is the same as if you intended to deceive, it's still fraud regardless of whether a person knowingly committed it. (If memory serves, this is called "constructive fraud".)

    So, while not knowing the extent of a fraud a person may be unknowingly part of might mitigate a large degree of needed retribution/atonement, they are still a fraud.




    No. Founders are supposed to be dead. Decades of history passing by determine who is ultimately a founder. Such shifts in what style a person allegedly "founded" or practiced is properly determined in retrospect. It is not done by going forward from the point were a practitioner proclaims themselves a progenitor of the newest, baddest BigDickDo Martial Art style.

    Hey,

    That's my style, and I'll thank you very much to quit plagerising it. :sad7:
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  10. kwoww is offline
    kwoww's Avatar

    poser

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley / Rochester
    Posts
    1,986

    Posted On:
    9/08/2007 11:34am


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    No. Founders are supposed to be dead. Decades of history passing by determine who is ultimately a founder. Such shifts in what style a person allegedly "founded" or practiced is properly determined in retrospect. It is not done by going forward from the point were a practitioner proclaims themselves a progenitor of the newest, baddest BigDickDo Martial Art style.
    As an example:

    Jesus didn't "found" Christianity. Yes, he began the school of thought that ultimately developed over the course of centuries into Christianity, but he didn't walk around proclaiming he had invented a new religion or anything. He even thought of himself as a Jew.

    I mean, I guess you could cite General Choi or Kano or Oyama when you talk about founders, but again, I don't think any of them gave themselves ranks in their own styles. They just said "hai guyz i has new style wanna lern," not "hai guyz i has hi rank in poopyryubudojutsufudo cum train, o btw i invent PRBJFD becuz i iz master lol"
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