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  1. Matt W. is offline
    Matt W.'s Avatar

    Community Corrections Officer

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 2:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I immediately thought of the second move in whiteshark's vid. Those are the two I learned from Kesa, so far. Though, also like whiteshark, the finish I learned for the second one was a bit different than the vid. I was taught to crank the bent arm under your leg like you would apply a key lock.
  2. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:01pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're doing the arm around head version, arm triangle is another possibility. For me, it's usually arm triangle or straight arm bar. Often times, I'll just use kesa as a transition move.

    If I catch the underhook on the far side arm instead, I'll go Ude Garame/keylock. I'll secure, switch to straight side control and lock it up.

    Even better with the far side arm underhooked is to get a grip, and as he's trying to get up on his hip and take your back, flip your hips and step up over his head, and spin to far side arm bar. Since he's up on his hip oftentimes, you'll sit very deep under his shoulder after you spin. The arm bar will be very deep, and I'll sometimes get people tapping even before their arm is extended, as it feels like a shoulder lock. Plus, you always get style points for a far side spin.
    Last edited by Ryno; 9/06/2007 3:04pm at .
  3. M-Tri is offline
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    Pseudo-Scrambler Extraordinaire

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    Oops.

    Well, in my defense I had no idea that position was called scarf hold in english. In portuguese we call it "fundamental".

    Still, I suppose the subject of that thread is not the same as this one. I am not questioning HKG (yes, many BJJ blue belts believe it is a shitty position because you supposedly can get the other guyīs back), I actually KNOW it works - I just want more submission options.
    It is extremely easy to take the back and/or armbar, and/or sweep someone in that position, so you have to be very aware and active if you hold it. I personally think it's only good for brief transitions. Since I KNOW how easy it is to attack from the bottom I don't recommmend holding it for prolonged periods of time
  4. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey Triangles
    It is extremely easy to take the back and/or armbar, and/or sweep someone in that position, so you have to be very aware and active if you hold it. I personally think it's only good for brief transitions. Since I KNOW how easy it is to attack from the bottom I don't recommmend holding it for prolonged periods of time
    Iīm afraid you are wrong, according to my experience, and according to my BJJ coachīs opinion, and according to many many HKG fans on this very site.

    In fact, no one EVER took my back when I did the HKG. Reversals yes, but getting my back nope, not at all.

    In fact I am usually able to hold down the HKG for as long as I like. Some people have actually tapped out of my HKG without a submission, they just realized they were not going anywhere.

    So I am now interested in submissions. The position itself is good, thank you very much.

    PS: No offense meant, itīs just that I donīt feel like defending the HKG on this thread, specially considering I tapped out two blue belts yesterday from this position (and Iīve been doing BJJ for only six months).
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:40pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have had the same experience WCL. I can hold blues and whites there forever. Purples and Blacks not so much. They don't take my back but they do reverse me pretty fast.
  6. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    I have had the same experience WCL. I can hold blues and whites there forever. Purples and Blacks not so much. They don't take my back but they do reverse me pretty fast.
    Funny thing is, there are two blues who keep insisting it is a shitty position, even though they keep falling for it. Talk about being blind by choice.

    Most of the blues and all the purples, however, say it is a cool position but they donīt want to risk doing it themselves.

    And the one black belt, our coach, says it is my best move and I should perfect it. In fact he said he would not usually recommend HKG because it is risky, but since I have good control I should work on it.

    Judo for the win.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here;s the thing

    When you say you can hold it forever

    Is that with a gi or with out?

    Cause a Judoka with deadly Judoka grip can use a gi and lcok you down

    No gi with slipery sweety people is harder
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:52pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    GI - 100%
    No-GI - 80%
  9. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 3:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I do BJJ, so I train with a gi 90% of the time.

    I have used the HKG successfully during the other 10% as well. Hell, I have used it successfully with bloody boxing gloves on (long story).

    But to be entirely honest, I simply havenīt done enough no-gi sparring to answer you with all confidence.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  10. M-Tri is offline
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    Pseudo-Scrambler Extraordinaire

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 4:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    Iīm afraid you are wrong, according to my experience, and according to my BJJ coachīs opinion, and according to many many HKG fans on this very site.

    In fact, no one EVER took my back when I did the HKG. Reversals yes, but getting my back nope, not at all.

    In fact I am usually able to hold down the HKG for as long as I like. Some people have actually tapped out of my HKG without a submission, they just realized they were not going anywhere.

    So I am now interested in submissions. The position itself is good, thank you very much.

    PS: No offense meant, itīs just that I donīt feel like defending the HKG on this thread, specially considering I tapped out two blue belts yesterday from this position (and Iīve been doing BJJ for only six months).

    I've never had anyone be able to hold me in that postion without me taking there back, or armbarring them, or sweeping them. Even professional fighters, such as Mikey Burnett opted not to use that position against me after I got my hooks in on him twice. I'm definitely not wrong, and I'm definitely more experienced than you with this. I tap out blue belts from Kesa Gatame on a regular basis also; especially from the variation with the far side underhook, but not after they start getting their defense down.

    Like I said, you have to keep on your toes in that position because a good opponent with some flexibility WILL take your back. Obviously in only six months of training and likely no competitions you wouldn't know this yet. It's not necessarily a bad position because as mentioned there are a fair amount of submissions from there, but it is very risky.



    As for submissions I prefer the variation with the underhook on the far side. This is an EXTREMELY RISKY POSITION, but if you can be quick there are a couple great subs from here. My personal favorite is to throw the outside leg over my opponents head and catch it with the underhooking hand on the farside. assuming you were controlling the position correctly his near arm should be trapped under your far arm and over your hip. Simply lean back to put pressure on his elbow for the armbar, or roll back and triangle his head for a neck-crank/armbar combo.
    Last edited by M-Tri; 9/06/2007 4:31pm at .
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