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  1. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 10:02am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    The word you were looking for was "anatomy." So sorry, good luck next time :)
    That was in response to his use of the word geometry. (Why it was quoted, should I have [sic]
    'd it instead?)
  2. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 10:10am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Honestly, it's nothing I'd ever try, but until I train with and put these guys to the test more, I'll reserve concrete judgement :)
    I don't have the time right now to quote and respond Jeff's post to basically say the same thing you just said here, so I'll just say: It really sounds like I got to see this in person.

    Hopefully you NYC 'Tards will be nice enough to schedule the next TD on a vacation so it's easier to attend.
  3. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 10:21am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I don't have the time right now to quote and respond Jeff's post to basically say the same thing you just said here, so I'll just say: It really sounds like I got to see this in person.

    Hopefully you NYC 'Tards will be nice enough to schedule the next TD on a vacation so it's easier to attend.
    help us pick a date that works for you:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61700
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  4. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 3:00pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=jchristian]Criticism isn't offensive to me, since it's as good a starting point as any to start with.[QUOTE=jchristian]

    Thats good. You'd be shocked at how many people fly off the handle when their sacred cow gets a little too close to the slaughterhouse conveyer belt.

    [QUOTE=jchristian]At the last TD, I had the chance to talk to KempoFist about the whole "controlling the spine through the wrist" concept. I don't know if he agrees with its execution, but I think he understood the concept. It's not against the laws of physics, but simple anatomy. The wrist is connected to the spine via the elbow and shoulder. Lock the joints sequentially from the wrist to the shoulder, and you control the spine. You do the same thing when you use an arm-bar to force someone's spine to bend. Controlling the spine at the wrist simply moves the mechanical leverage one joint farther away from the spine, but it's still the same mechanism. Pure physics.[QUOTE=jchristian]

    Yes, but an arm-bar doesn't work because you isolate only the wrist as a point of control. An arm-bar is using the entirety of your body to bring leverage to bear on a comparatively weak point of your opponent's body. Its patently impossible to control a thing like an arm by one point when it has so many working parts. Do you control a snake by grabbing it by the tail? No.

    [QUOTE=jchristian]The appropriateness of using a wrist lock to control the spine is a different question. An armbar is a great technique, but if you and your opponent aren't in the right geometry, then it'll never happen. Again, a wrist lock is no different. It's not a magic technique that will produce instant results. The opponent's balance has to be broken or weakened enough so that they are unable to prevent the wrist lock from happening. Again, no different from the armbar (or any other joint lock, for that matter).[QUOTE=jchristian]

    A proper arm bar hardly starts at only one point and its certainly not some kind of accident like "Whoops, he fell and here's his arm" its not a target of opportunity, its a deliberately executed technique. I'll ask you flat out, ever wrist lock a fully resisting opponent? Who was trying to punch and kick you a the same time? Who was more interested in kicking your ass than submitting to the technique?

    [QUOTE=jchristian]A properly executed technique of any sort (no matter what art) should never rely on the opponent aiding you. Anyone who trains in such a manner isn't preparing for real fighting -- the Bujinkan is no exception. The difference lies in the methodology of training. I caution my students about extrapolating what they see on internet videos into any concrete reality. (I'm sure we would agree that the internet is an unreliable reflection of the Truth.)[QUOTE=jchristian]

    The internet is 90% horse-**** with a dash of con-artistry.


    [QUOTE=jchristian]I have my opinions about NY Budo (I've got plenty of refugees from there). Suffice to say that if you've never experience mechanical (not pain) compliance from a gyaku (even with full resistance), you weren't properly taught. You wouldn't be the first former NY Budo student to fall in this category, I'm sorry to say.[QUOTE=jchristian]

    I've seen people resist wrist locks in class there, but they were already in the other guy's grip. I've never seen one of their students pull that off when they didn't already have the wrist in their hands.

    NY Budo was an awful school, I was repeatedly yelled at for going too hard and that they were afraid that we were going to scare the younger students if one of us got hurt. This was from the sectretary for fucks sake. Some dizzy blonde that Jean Pierre hired to work the front desk. But he backed her up. He also never seemed that interested in teaching or his students. So I'd agree with your assessment but nothing I've seen then or since has convinced me that there my be decent bujinkaan training out there. Everything has just reinforced my opinion. There's a cult of personality surrounding many of your ranking members and I think its deeply unhealthy. Both for your students and you yourselves as instructors.


    [QUOTE=jchristian]I agree, up to a point. The issue isn't whether fighting takes effort, the question is how much effort does it take? I think that the better you get at an art (no matter what art it is), the less effort it takes to overcome an opponent. Not to say that it's effortless, just less effort.[QUOTE=jchristian]

    That's true. And is exactly what I was saying, but you can't bring up a beginner in this atmosphere of "it should take no effort" because they can't learn how to make things effortless without a lot of trial and error and expension of effort. I've never seen a decent fighter come out of one of these "no effort" environments. It stunts their growth and they walk around under the illusion that its easy to win a fight.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 3:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd like to further comment in regards to Mr. Christian's comments of being taught properly or improperly regarding the gyaku.

    You essentially say that if you are able to resist and strike back during such a lock, then the person was not applying it properly. I assume to take this to mean that any number of variables were off, whether it be improper grip, or poor timing, correct?

    I would like to compare and contrast this with a very high percentage move in my experience, the outside leg reap. Now arguably, if the person is able to step or hop out of this sweep mid-way with resistance, then it is not the flaw of the technique, but rather the poor execution of it on my part.

    Now no move is fool-proof. No move is guaranteed. There is always a risk and a reward involved. When I throw a punch, I leave myself open to be countered. When I go to takedown, I expose myself to be reversed. That's part of the fight game.

    Mr. Christian, would you say that your wrist control possesses a high enough level of control to make it worth attempting? In other words, does the reward outweigh the risk?
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  6. jchristian is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 4:20pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    I'd like to further comment in regards to Mr. Christian's comments of being taught properly or improperly regarding the gyaku.

    You essentially say that if you are able to resist and strike back during such a lock, then the person was not applying it properly. I assume to take this to mean that any number of variables were off, whether it be improper grip, or poor timing, correct?
    Exactly. I've seen plenty of Bujinkan people struggle to get a gyaku on someone when they're simply not in position to do so. It has less to do with the opponent's level of resistance and more to do with whether the arm/hand is in the right position. Even against a fully resistant opponent trying to punch and kick you, the gyaku works fine. In every instance I've seen where it's failed, it's because the uke's arm was simply not in the right place, and the person attempting the gyaku made no attempt to adjust for this. Hence, struggling for a technique that they have no business attempting in the first place.

    BTW, please call me Jeff. Don't make me feel older than I already am!

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    I'll ask you flat out, ever wrist lock a fully resisting opponent? Who was trying to punch and kick you a the same time? Who was more interested in kicking your ass than submitting to the technique?
    Absolutely. Again, the trick isn't just in properly executing the technique, but knowing when. For the record, having started off in judo and karate as a kid and having studied in the Bujinkan since '83, I've played plenty of times with people from other arts and feel entirely secure about what the Bujinkan is capable of. Just because I have a hold of your hand doesn't mean I'm going to go for the gyaku -- a basic mistake that people often make. The gyaku isn't about gripping your hand, it's about exploiting a weakness in your opponent that happens while you're gripping their hand. Whether that weakness existed from the moment of the grip, or because you created that weakness after the grip is another question. But if that weakness doesn't exist, the grip doesn't matter, in terms of trying to pull off the gyaku.

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    I would like to compare and contrast this with a very high percentage move in my experience, the outside leg reap. Now arguably, if the person is able to step or hop out of this sweep mid-way with resistance, then it is not the flaw of the technique, but rather the poor execution of it on my part.
    Exactly what I'm saying about the gyaku. How high a percentage a move is it depends on how likely it is you can get your hands on your opponent's hand. The more often you're able to do that, the more likely it is you can exploit or force a weakness in their structure that makes the gyaku easily executable. The harder it is to get their hand, the less likely you should attempt the gyaku in the first place. Just as you shouldn't attempt the outside leg reap if your opponent has full leg mobility, you shouldn't attempt the gyaku if your opponent's arm isn't in the right place for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Would you say that your wrist control possesses a high enough level of control to make it worth attempting? In other words, does the reward outweigh the risk?
    The gyaku in the Bujinkan is taught as a basic grappling move because of the high likelihood of getting a hold of your opponent's hand in a grappling situation -- after all, his hands are already on your body and therefore in easy range. If properly taught -- including when to do it! -- then it can be incredibly high percentage. If not, then it's going to suck way more often that it's going to work. But I think that's less a function of the technique and more a function of the teacher/student. If I do a crap job of teaching you a good technique, it's my fault, not yours, and not the technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    A proper arm bar hardly starts at only one point and its certainly not some kind of accident like "Whoops, he fell and here's his arm" its not a target of opportunity, its a deliberately executed technique.
    An example of target of opportunity: your opponent goes to grab you with his arm straight and you put an armbar on him. Deliberately done, but because he presented you with the chance, not because you forced it to happen. This happens all the time in every grappling art. You see the opening and take it.

    Forcing a technique: your opponent grabs you with a bent arm. You grab his forearm and throw your weight backward to try to force his arm straight. I would argue that this is not the best time to try and execute such a maneuver, since your opponent's geometry isn't really set up for a good armbar. Attempting to force it here gives your opponent ample opportunity to resist, counter, etc. This happens all the time in every grappling art.

    My first enounter with NY Budo was back in '91. I was living in NYC for the summer and figured I would train while I was here. I watched a class and was appalled by what I saw. Carol essentially turned me away from training, since I wasn't a member of the Shadows of Iga -- although I was a sandan in the Bujinkan and outranked her. No wonder to me that I spend an exasperating amount of time teaching NY Budo refugees how to unlearn things. Absolutely horrible training.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    And is exactly what I was saying, but you can't bring up a beginner in this atmosphere of "it should take no effort" because they can't learn how to make things effortless without a lot of trial and error and expension of effort. I've never seen a decent fighter come out of one of these "no effort" environments. It stunts their growth and they walk around under the illusion that its easy to win a fight.
    In a lot of ways, you've summarized the Bujinkan, I think -- trying to find the gems in the midst of the garbage. Again, I would argue that the problem is not in the art, but in the practitioners and teachers. I use progressive resistance and randori to bring students up to the point of executing techniques against fully resistant opponents. It's a no-brainer to do this, but it's also amazing how few Bujinkan practitioners do this.

    On the other hand, as I've said before, I think the emphasis shouldn't be on "No Effort," but on "Less Effort." Again, I think it's easy for practitioners to get confused on this point. I'm sure I was in my early days of training.
  7. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 4:54pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jchristian
    really well written and thought out explanation and response to my belligerent questions.

    Goddammit. You have to go and be all coherent and rational. You've completely queered my opinion of you guys. Now what am I gonna bitch about?

    Kidding.

    Anyway, I'd very much like to see how this works for you in person. A background in judo is encouraging, and its a frame of reference built on aliveness which, after a good decade in dead arts, I have a rabid need for.

    Yes, the minute I posted what I did I realized that there are numerous examples of opportunity targets in grappling and fighting in general. So it was a stupid point on my part. I'm now of the bunch that wants to meet you guys and see what you do in person.

    Do you guys spar? Or train live at all? And please, come to the next throwdown, you'd be welcome. I understood you came to the last one but of course I had left by that point.

    I still don't see why you would wrist lock to control when you could underhook or better yet, head-butt the guy but that might be a case of artistic difference.

    Thanks again for coming on and posting intelligently and peacefully, especially considering we found your stuff and without invitation started hacking it to pieces.

    Also, my attitude lies in wasted time within the booj at 18 and previously at 9 in another ryuha in Maryland where similar asshatery abounded. The guy that runs that school is a twat. I look forward to meeting you and hopefully rolling or sparring with you or/and your students.

    About your experience at NY Budo, who did you train with then? Because Hayes came to do a seminar there that I attended and there seemed to be nothing but good will between everybody involved but that may have been a business thing.

    What you mention about Carol (was that the fat aussie woman?) sums up my problem with rank in general. That **** should be based on skill. If you know what to do and can do it you should be the one talking. I can't count the number of times I've been a lower rank than somebody in an art and had to sit there listening to them explain a technique wrong. Or the person who can't kick my ass if giving me fighting advice. Priceless.
    Last edited by JP; 10/23/2007 4:58pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  8. jchristian is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 6:07pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    Do you guys spar? Or train live at all?
    We don't spar. I explained some of the reasoning behind it to Kempo at the last TD. It's a difference in methodology, where he and I (again) cheerfully disagree. So far as alive training goes, that involved a really long discussion on MAP where I found out that we basically do alive training, but never called it that. It's just training to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    I still don't see why you would wrist lock to control when you could underhook or better yet, head-butt the guy but that might be a case of artistic difference.
    It's the difference between kicking versus kneeing the guy. If you're close enough to head-butt or underhook, you're too close to gyaku (generally speaking -- there are exceptions, just as there are extremely close-range kicks).

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    Thanks again for coming on and posting intelligently and peacefully, especially considering we found your stuff and without invitation started hacking it to pieces.
    Dude, I've trained in the Bujinkan for long enough to have seen it all and heard it all. Not all criticism of the Bujinkan is unfounded -- I know the art is not some magical Star Wars thing as some practioners seem to act. It's like any other martial art -- it takes a lot of hard work and dedication, constantly questioning whether you're doing things as well as you could. I've learned to ignore the arrogance that some folks in the Bujinkan project. At the end of the day, all I can do is focus on my own training.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    Also, my attitude lies in wasted time within the booj at 18 and previously at 9 in another ryuha in Maryland where similar asshatery abounded.
    My anger at being refused to allow to train stemmed mostly from the fact that the students there were being taught such awful budo.

    I started my Bujinkan training with Hayes in Ohio. A whole other experience best discussed over beer, rather than open forums, I think.
  9. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 6:28pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have yet to watch a class of yours Jeff, but I think what you do is closer to sparring than you think based on our talk. I think you're just used to seeing point sparring or kickboxing and assume that's what most hold true to be "sparring." As I was saying to Squerlli yesterday via PM, the secondary stage of training (see: i-method) where randori is used is quite a grey area, encompassing everything from nearly compliant drilling, to borderline all out sparring.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  10. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 6:29pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jchristian
    We don't spar. I explained some of the reasoning behind it to Kempo at the last TD. It's a difference in methodology, where he and I (again) cheerfully disagree. So far as alive training goes, that involved a really long discussion on MAP where I found out that we basically do alive training, but never called it that. It's just training to us.

    It's the difference between kicking versus kneeing the guy. If you're close enough to head-butt or underhook, you're too close to gyaku (generally speaking -- there are exceptions, just as there are extremely close-range kicks).

    Dude, I've trained in the Bujinkan for long enough to have seen it all and heard it all. Not all criticism of the Bujinkan is unfounded -- I know the art is not some magical Star Wars thing as some practioners seem to act. It's like any other martial art -- it takes a lot of hard work and dedication, constantly questioning whether you're doing things as well as you could. I've learned to ignore the arrogance that some folks in the Bujinkan project. At the end of the day, all I can do is focus on my own training.

    My anger at being refused to allow to train stemmed mostly from the fact that the students there were being taught such awful budo.

    I started my Bujinkan training with Hayes in Ohio. A whole other experience best discussed over beer, rather than open forums, I think.
    I like beer. I think something can be arranged.....but training has to come first. Its like, you don't smoke before you get laid, right?
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
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