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  1. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2007 11:07pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    JP, just noticed you're online. Vin wanted to get in touch with you. Gonna PM you his phone number. He said it was rather urgent.

    he and I talked. I'm trying to help now.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  2. jchristian is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 12:23am


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    However, I take issue with every example on your site standing clinch work. It looks patently ineffective. And apologies if this offends but you opened yourself to criticism here. Your concept of "controlling the spine" doesn't make any sense when aligned with its applications. How do you propose to control the bulk of a human, while holding just his wrist? Its against the laws of physics. Hell, I'm sure you can break his wrist but you're not gonna toss him around by his hand unless he helps you do it.
    Criticism isn't offensive to me, since it's as good a starting point as any to start with.

    At the last TD, I had the chance to talk to KempoFist about the whole "controlling the spine through the wrist" concept. I don't know if he agrees with its execution, but I think he understood the concept. It's not against the laws of physics, but simple anatomy. The wrist is connected to the spine via the elbow and shoulder. Lock the joints sequentially from the wrist to the shoulder, and you control the spine. You do the same thing when you use an armbar to force someone's spine to bend. Controlling the spine at the wrist simply moves the mechanical leverage one joint farther away from the spine, but it's still the same mechanism. Pure physics.

    The appropriateness of using a wrist lock to control the spine is a different question. An armbar is a great technique, but if you and your opponent aren't in the right geometry, then it'll never happen. Again, a wrist lock is no different. It's not a magic technique that will produce instant results. The opponent's balance has to be broken or weakened enough so that they are unable to prevent the wrist lock from happening. Again, no different from the armbar (or any other joint lock, for that matter).

    A properly executed technique of any sort (no matter what art) should never rely on the opponent aiding you. Anyone who trains in such a manner isn't preparing for real fighting -- the Bujinkan is no exception. The difference lies in the methodology of training. I caution my students about extrapolating what they see on internet videos into any concrete reality. (I'm sure we would agree that the internet is an unreliable reflection of the Truth.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    And before you ask, yes I've studied with a registered school in the Booj, New York Budo in fact, I've held kyu rank, and I still think your training methods are deeply flawed and a large chunk of the curriculum is useless for the purpose for which you intend it.
    I have my opinions about NY Budo (I've got plenty of refugees from there). Suffice to say that if you've never experience mechanical (not pain) compliance from a gyaku (even with full resistance), you weren't properly taught. You wouldn't be the first former NY Budo student to fall in this category, I'm sorry to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    This illusion that one can fight without exerting effort is just that. The appearance of effortless fighting is one that comes only after years of effort and hard training. Period.
    I agree, up to a point. The issue isn't whether fighting takes effort, the question is how much effort does it take? I think that the better you get at an art (no matter what art it is), the less effort it takes to overcome an opponent. Not to say that it's effortless, just less effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by [U
    [/U]Squerlli]Anybody want me to go down and check the place out? Possibly as interview with the head ninjer? Any review advice would be helpful.
    As I told KempoFist at the last TD, anybody is always welcome to stop by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming
    to me, it seems to be an extremely dangerous way to fall, and that a shoulder roll would be safer and a higher percentage technique, as you don't risk your wrist and if you roll properly, you can also end up on your feet in the same time it would take to handspring.
    You're absolutely right. A shoulder roll is the standard escape from the ura gyaku that you saw, and 90% of the time is your best option if you plan on rolling out of that technique.

    Explaining this is difficult in words, easier in person. But here goes...

    When the throw happens above a certain height, the handspring can actually be a better option. The turn happens quickly -- since the person doing the throw is providing the power, it's actually difficult to change the dynamic of the throw that quickly if you're not expecting it. The advantage is that it puts you on your feet almost immediately in a decent position. The supposition here is that the person is experienced and is doing it at an appropriate time. An ura gyaku that drives the person into the ground is clearly not an appropriate time to try and execute such a maneuver.

    I completely understand the skepticism. Martial arts are best shared in person, not in words, I think. For the record, Eddie (in the video) is quite capable of doing a standard roll from an ura gyaku, so in his case, staying safe isn't an issue. This is a matter of adding another tool to the toolbox. It's up to Eddie to learn when it's an appropriate tool to use. A flathead screw looks like a Phillips head screw, and the screwdrivers are almost exectly the same, but different enough to be useful. True of all techniques, I think.

    Again, I extend the same invite to everyone as I did to KF. Or we can just arrange time to meetup in Central Park some Sunday afternoon and learn from each other. I can help people understand where we're coming from and everyone can call BS as they see fit.:happy:

    Jeff
  3. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 12:43am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jchristian
    Criticism isn't offensive to me, since it's as good a starting point as any to start with.

    At the last TD, I had the chance to talk to KempoFist about the whole "controlling the spine through the wrist" concept. I don't know if he agrees with its execution, but I think he understood the concept. It's not against the laws of physics, but simple anatomy. The wrist is connected to the spine via the elbow and shoulder. Lock the joints sequentially from the wrist to the shoulder, and you control the spine. You do the same thing when you use an armbar to force someone's spine to bend. Controlling the spine at the wrist simply moves the mechanical leverage one joint farther away from the spine, but it's still the same mechanism. Pure physics.
    Hi, just saw your videos and if you can remember: I was the fat kid in the Sox jersey at the last TD who talked a *very* little bit with you guys. (I basically listened to Kempo's description of various styles of grappling then had to leave)

    Anyhoo, not to sound like a smartass but you can't controll the spine from the wrist the way your videos show based on anatomy and physics (I had anatomy las semester and am taking physics now). The wrist is as connected to your spine as it is your shin or knee. Just by listing the various joints in between the wrist and the spine does not mean when you pull or twist the wrist the spine reacts in one way or another to any significant degree.

    And well, physics? I don't see it at all in what you're saying. (Then again, I'm not far into the year and if you just described it differently or in a way I can ask my professor I'd re-think that statement)

    The appropriateness of using a wrist lock to control the spine is a different question. An armbar is a great technique, but if you and your opponent aren't in the right geometry, then it'll never happen. Again, a wrist lock is no different. It's not a magic technique that will produce instant results. The opponent's balance has to be broken or weakened enough so that they are unable to prevent the wrist lock from happening. Again, no different from the armbar (or any other joint lock, for that matter).
    I spent many years in JJJ before switching to Judo and while a you're right in that both a wrist lock and an armbar need proper positioning ("geometry") before a succesful attempt an armbar uses either the entire body, or almost the entire body on one isolated joint whereas with the wrist-lock you may find ways of added a little body here and there, it is primarily done with the hands and arms themselves, making it easier for simply brute-strength resistance.

    IMO if you are already in good enough position for a wrist-lock, you might as well go for the armbar or choke because they are less strength dependant against a fully resisting opponent.

    A properly executed technique of any sort (no matter what art) should never rely on the opponent aiding you. Anyone who trains in such a manner isn't preparing for real fighting -- the Bujinkan is no exception. The difference lies in the methodology of training. I caution my students about extrapolating what they see on internet videos into any concrete reality. (I'm sure we would agree that the internet is an unreliable reflection of the Truth.)
    I know videos are no substitute for being there to experience the technique, but considering the case: All I have are the videos and pictures from your website at the moment. (Hopefully that will change next TD)

    I have my opinions about NY Budo (I've got plenty of refugees from there). Suffice to say that if you've never experience mechanical (not pain) compliance from a gyaku (even with full resistance), you weren't properly taught. You wouldn't be the first former NY Budo student to fall in this category, I'm sorry to say.
    I've felt pain from gyaku and various other wristlocks (whether you and I use the same terminology is an issue, but in the end most wristlocks and standing/kneeling TMA jointlocks seem to be rather the same), but the effort and presicion needed to pull off those moves against a moving, resisting opponent have proven difficult for many of the JJJ dans (Shodans or Nidans are my experience with attempted resistance) is nearly astronomical and again, it is much easier to muscle your way out of te-kagame (umm... twist the wrist) than it is to out of juji-gatame.

    (Not saying you can't for the latter, or that it won't be hard for the former. This is all relative)

    I agree, up to a point. The issue isn't whether fighting takes effort, the question is how much effort does it take? I think that the better you get at an art (no matter what art it is), the less effort it takes to overcome an opponent. Not to say that it's effortless, just less effort.
    Agreed.

    You're absolutely right. A shoulder roll is the standard escape from the ura gyaku that you saw, and 90% of the time is your best option if you plan on rolling out of that technique.

    Explaining this is difficult in words, easier in person. But here goes...

    When the throw happens above a certain height, the handspring can actually be a better option. The turn happens quickly -- since the person doing the throw is providing the power, it's actually difficult to change the dynamic of the throw that quickly if you're not expecting it. The advantage is that it puts you on your feet almost immediately in a decent position. The supposition here is that the person is experienced and is doing it at an appropriate time. An ura gyaku that drives the person into the ground is clearly not an appropriate time to try and execute such a maneuver.

    I completely understand the skepticism. Martial arts are best shared in person, not in words, I think. For the record, Eddie (in the video) is quite capable of doing a standard roll from an ura gyaku, so in his case, staying safe isn't an issue. This is a matter of adding another tool to the toolbox. It's up to Eddie to learn when it's an appropriate tool to use. A flathead screw looks like a Phillips head screw, and the screwdrivers are almost exectly the same, but different enough to be useful. True of all techniques, I think.
    I don't know... I've been thrown and seen a lot of throwing and that "escape" looked really, really dangerous to a degree that I'd never want to try it. I've seen a lot of Judoka try to arm their way out of a good throw only to get a serious injury.

    Again, I extend the same invite to everyone as I did to KF. Or we can just arrange time to meetup in Central Park some Sunday afternoon and learn from each other. I can help people understand where we're coming from and everyone can call BS as they see fit.:happy:

    Jeff
    I'd love to take you up on your offer come next TD. The sooner we find out when it is, the sooner I can start saving my broke ass for it. (Sorry I didn't get to chat more with you at the end there, I was hungry and there was a bus/train to catch)
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 1:00am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I spent many years in JJJ before switching to Judo and while a you're right in that both a wrist lock and an armbar need proper positioning ("geometry") before a succesful attempt....
    The word you were looking for was "anatomy." So sorry, good luck next time :)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 1:18am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not going to engage in an e-hashing of technical details that can only be really expressed and tested in person.

    I will comment on the supposed locking out of the spine discussion, considering I met Jeff in person and experienced what he is talking about.

    As he said, I believe I understand the physics behind what he is trying to accomplish, but I still disagree, or at least am skeptical of its practical application in a real fight. The main principle behind it is not cranking a wristlock like most JJJ, Ke?po, or pretty much any style that teaches standing wristlocks. It's more comparable to Judo and BJJ guys who use grips to step and off-balance their opponent. The wrist is gripped and twisted by drawing it back like an armdrag, thus not allowing the elbow to bend and essentially "locks out" your opponents joints and posture. This lock only lasts a very fleeting few moments, but arguably it could be used to open up and set up other more effective and hard hitting tactics.

    Honestly, it's nothing I'd ever try, but until I train with and put these guys to the test more, I'll reserve concrete judgement :)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  6. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 1:26am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And the head instructor (jchristian) and one of his students did engage in live rolling with me starting from the knees. Jeff has great base, and held me off from doing what I wanted (pulling him down and taking topside) for quite some time, constantly swimming for proper grips and keeping his hips low, finally forcing me to pull guard and use a scissor sweep to get him to his back.

    His student (llong) was MUCH bigger than I thought he was based on forum persona, and displayed ample knowledge of defending a RNC, keeping his chin tucked tight. Now we just gotta show him how to escape that position, or even better...not get there in the first place :)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  7. jchristian is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 7:08am


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Hi, just saw your videos and if you can remember: I was the fat kid in the Sox jersey at the last TD who talked a *very* little bit with you guys. (I basically listened to Kempo's description of various styles of grappling then had to leave)
    Hey, yeah, I remember you.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Anyhoo, not to sound like a smartass but you can't controll the spine from the wrist the way your videos show based on anatomy and physics (I had anatomy las semester and am taking physics now). The wrist is as connected to your spine as it is your shin or knee. Just by listing the various joints in between the wrist and the spine does not mean when you pull or twist the wrist the spine reacts in one way or another to any significant degree.
    As KempoFist succinctly summarized for me, locking the joints in succession leads to a locking of the spine. Lock the wrist and then the forearm rotates. Rotate the forearm enough, the elbow will lock and the humerus rotates. Rotate the humerus until the shoulder locks and then the spine will begin to rotate. I promise, it's simple anatomy and physics.

    Having said that, distance and angling are the most important aspect of the gyaku. Wrong distance or angle, your bones will rotate too much without actually locking up, and I'll never gain that level of control. Stretch out the arm at the correct angle and the joints will lock up successively much quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I spent many years in JJJ before switching to Judo and while a you're right in that both a wrist lock and an armbar need proper positioning ("geometry") before a succesful attempt an armbar uses either the entire body, or almost the entire body on one isolated joint whereas with the wrist-lock you may find ways of added a little body here and there, it is primarily done with the hands and arms themselves, making it easier for simply brute-strength resistance.
    Not to trash NY Budo, but that's one of the misconceptions that seemed prevelant there. If I'm just using hand/finger strength, then I' m not doing it correctly. The movement should be driven by the legs and the spine, with the hands directing the power. Legs stretch the arm, hips and spine provide the rotation. If the geometry is correct, then even a fully resistant opponent will go down. If the geometry isn't correct, then yeah, it'll be a bitch (again, true of any technique).

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    IMO if you are already in good enough position for a wrist-lock, you might as well go for the armbar or choke because they are less strength dependant against a fully resisting opponent.
    Because the gyaku is much more effective when the arm is stretched, its applicability tends to be distance-driven. I tend to do the gyaku when I'm more away from you, not when I'm close to you (as would be required for the armbar or choke). At that distance, it's harder for you to counterpunch. Again, easier to show in person.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I know videos are no substitute for being there to experience the technique, but considering the case: All I have are the videos and pictures from your website at the moment. (Hopefully that will change next TD)
    Exactly why I'm not offended by people who don't understand or disagree with what's going on in the videos. I chose the videos to provide clear demonstration of specific things, not "real fighting," which is pretty messy and can make for a messy visual study training tool, I think. But that's my taste (KempoFist and I cheerfully disagree on this).

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I've felt pain from gyaku and various other wristlocks (whether you and I use the same terminology is an issue, but in the end most wristlocks and standing/kneeling TMA jointlocks seem to be rather the same), but the effort and presicion needed to pull off those moves against a moving, resisting opponent have proven difficult for many of the JJJ dans...<snip>
    I think the mechanics of any particular technique is easy enough to learn. Much harder is knowing when it's appropriate. At this stage in my training, I spend more time learning how to create situations where techniques are feasible, rather than the actual techniques themselves. It's common for martial artists to see an opening that isn't really there or is easily closed off and chase a technique that really wasn't so feasible in the first place. This is why the gyaku is taught from grappling, rather than striking -- finding the appropriate geometry is easier in that situation. It's not that you can't do the gyaku when someone punches you -- but it does require good footwork to follow the punch (and probably isn't the best response against an experienced striker anyway). But having said that, just because a technique might only be useful in a small percentage of cases doesn't mean it's not useful, just extremely specific. The presumption is that people are using it appropriately, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I've been thrown and seen a lot of throwing and that "escape" looked really, really dangerous to a degree that I'd never want to try it. I've seen a lot of Judoka try to arm their way out of a good throw only to get a serious injury.
    It falls in the category of "don't attempt unless you can do it." Some people can do it, others can't. More importantly, some people can feel when it's appropriate to attempt it. Since there's zero resistance to your opponent's power, the kinesthetic sense of what's happening is vital. I would very rarely do it myself, but I wouldn't rule it out. It's proven useful.

    I plan on coming to the next TD, depending on when it is. Some of my students want to come also. I'll be traveling a bit the next couple of months, so hopefully the stars will align.

    And thanks for the welcome, Kempo! Yep, just following you around. :wave:

    Jeff
  8. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 8:55am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jchristian
    I plan on coming to the next TD, depending on when it is. Some of my students want to come also.
    Hey, that's great. I look forward to playing with you guys.
  9. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 9:11am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    Hey, that's great. I look forward to playing with you guys.
    Don't you have some forms and giant CMA weapons to go practice!? :tongue3:
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  10. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 9:27am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Don't you have some forms and giant CMA weapons to go practice!? :tongue3:
    Naw, forms are for beginners. I'm over the hill. There's a difference. :smile:
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