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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 12:16pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kesa Gatame


    To Kata Gatame


    Is a good move

    I am not sure if you could transition from one to another with under hook

    Maybe you can

    I have to experiment

    Off to my LAB!!
    Last edited by Goju - Joe; 9/05/2007 12:18pm at .
  2. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 12:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    Kesa Gatame


    To Kata Gatame


    Is a good move
    Maybe if your grappling a cadaver...otherwise your back is getting taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    I am not sure if you could tranistion from one to another with under hook

    Maybe you can

    I have to experiment

    Off to my LAB!!
    You transition to the arm triangle using the underhook on the far arm. Typically, I can move to grab the far wrist to fake the americana and when they pull the arm away, usually up toward their head, you push the tricep on the far arm across their face and pin it with your head. From there you transition to side control on the trapped side to complete the sub.

    There are many different ways to transition from the left to the right side or visa versa.....look it up.
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 12:38pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    Maybe if your grappling a cadaver...otherwise your back is getting taken.

    It's pretty standard Judo move and of all the many, many, many times i have been tapped out I don't think I have ever had my back taken from there

    However I was taught it as an active position. One in which you move with the opponent and transition to other holds and positions. I.E. Kesa to side control - to north south - to full mount.

    Also I go from Kesa to Gyaku kata gatame more than regular kata gatame (can't find an image) in which you're almost flat on your stomach really high up around the head.
  4. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 12:38pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i'd say the keylock with ur legs is important to get used to doing (he may or may not tap from this but doesnt matter).....any time u can trap an arm without the use of your hands is a plus IMO
    from there, u can focus on attacking the far arm, either with a sub, or trap it and throw them 'bows down on the head - like what hughes did to BJ in their second fight
  5. frodo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 4:13pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    ****, who in there right mind would do anything BUT the kesa with an underhook. Actually, I thought the far side underhook WAS proper Kesa Gatame positioning...if your not doing it WITH the far side underhook I would go so far as to say its borderline crappling.
    Um, calling it crappling is a very extreme reaction. Normal kesa gatame without the underhook is a standard move in judo and CSW. You have to pull the head off the ground and adjust your weight a little differently, but its still very common. I personally use kuzure kesa gatame and ushiro kesa gatame more often, but kesa gatame is good too.
  6. RobT is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 5:25pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    i'd say the keylock with ur legs is important to get used to doing (he may or may not tap from this but doesnt matter).....any time u can trap an arm without the use of your hands is a plus IMO
    from there, u can focus on attacking the far arm, either with a sub, or trap it and throw them 'bows down on the head - like what hughes did to BJ in their second fight
    If you trap the arm and maintain tight control you can also get a reverse/inverted (whichever it is) triangle. Do that, then attack the far arm.


    I've always used an underhook in nogi, and most of the time with gi too, and just assumed that was standard scarf hold. That said, I'm not really one for bothering much to learn the "correct" names for things.
  7. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 5:27pm


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by frodo
    Um, calling it crappling is a very extreme reaction. Normal kesa gatame without the underhook is a standard move in judo and CSW. You have to pull the head off the ground and adjust your weight a little differently, but its still very common. I personally use kuzure kesa gatame and ushiro kesa gatame more often, but kesa gatame is good too.
    Normal kesa is a much more secure hold-down than kuzure because you're less susceptable to being rolled over since you're really just pinning the head and shoulder of the opponent so he can't use his body as a fulcrum like in kuzure kesa. So for the purposes of sport judo, where you can pin your opponent to win it's much more useful than kuzure.

    Kuzure is better if you want to work for subs since you're not as locked in as straight kesa. Pretty much the only move I've been able to use straight kesa for is to transition into an arm triangle by slipping your head under the trapped arm and pushing it over and into kata gatame (arm triangle).

    It's funny how you mention taking the back. There's a really good BJJ blue belt at my club who's great to roll with. The most frustrating thing for him is when I catch him in kesa. He also thought it would be easy to take the back. When an experienced judo guy catches you flush there, you're not going anywhere unless you're a lot bigger or stronger. If the bottom guy tries to hook a leg with his legs, you just apply pressure down and walk around him. It's really hard to get out of and not a particularly comfortable position. That said, it's pretyt much purely a sport judo pin since it doesn't lend itself to transitioning to subs.
  8. Kokujin is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 7:23pm


     Style: BJJ(blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    It's funny how you mention taking the back. There's a really good BJJ blue belt at my club who's great to roll with. The most frustrating thing for him is when I catch him in kesa. He also thought it would be easy to take the back. When an experienced judo guy catches you flush there, you're not going anywhere unless you're a lot bigger or stronger. If the bottom guy tries to hook a leg with his legs, you just apply pressure down and walk around him. It's really hard to get out of and not a particularly comfortable position. That said, it's pretyt much purely a sport judo pin since it doesn't lend itself to transitioning to subs.
    One of the first time I rolled with a former judo guy(always judo guy) he managed to pin me on the mat for a couple of minutes, in one of the most embarrasing bjj moments ever. Judo pin on me, so I tried the bridge and roll to restore guard, I tried the chest lift with one hand on his ribs, I laughed, almost cried in anger and there he stood...pinning me to the mat and not really going anywhere. That gave me a new and better sense of the quallities of judo on the ground!
  9. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 7:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    ****, who in there right mind would do anything BUT the kesa with an underhook. Actually, I thought the far side underhook WAS proper Kesa Gatame positioning...if your not doing it WITH the far side underhook I would go so far as to say its borderline crappling.
    I'm sorry, you've been a blue belt for what, a month? Yes, the underhook is almost a universally superior way to hold kesa, but I've dealt with a fair number of Judoka who could place you in such danger from a traditional kesa, you'd spend more time defending your arms than jerking off all over your copy of Theory and Technique.

    That said, the number of people here who don't know how to hold a modified kesa is alarming.
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  10. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 7:54pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    I'm sorry, you've been a blue belt for what, a month? Yes, the underhook is almost a universally superior way to hold kesa, but I've dealt with a fair number of Judoka who could place you in such danger from a traditional kesa, you'd spend more time defending your arms than jerking off all over your copy of Theory and Technique.

    That said, the number of people here who don't know how to hold a modified kesa is alarming.
    Boyd is, of course, correct.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
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