Ninkage ryu bujutsu and Sabutai Musashi

**Gezere** · Posted On: 9/17/2009 5:10am

Originally Posted by Turan

The previous poster was mis-informed. He was actually at JapanFest a few years ago.
So many people post on the forums with feelings towards or against what they saw...it is natural. However: "Emotions cloud judgment." You can hate me later for quoting Star Wars.
Now lets take a look at this whole thing from a logical stand point.
Some people discredit him because there is no evidence of the Ninkage-Ryu school in Japan. Well who did they talk to? It's hard to disprove that something isn't real because you haven't talked to someone who knows about it. Also, I think that people forgot that there were two A-bombs dropped in Japan and that destroyed many of the records. That should also be investigated.
Another user posted something where they wondered why so many students left his school. Well that is easy- Most people fall under the stupid or jerk category...or both. Sorry for the bluntness. In very formal schools (those who arn't out to just make money), usually 1-5 out of 100 students make it to black belt. I am not surprised, by a logical basis, that many students did not stay.
Seeing how un-seriously Americans take serious martial-arts training...I'm not surprised when I go to several dojo's and see only a handful of students training.
I looked up the information and he IS in the Martial-arts Hall of Fame. (USKA) Just as a previous user commented on. It is very difficult to get into the USKA Hall of Fame. I believe that thereh as to be a unanimous vote to get someone in, along with several other qualifications.
Has anyone asked other Hall of Fame members about him? I believe they have annual meetings. Since Martial-arts Hall of Fame members live all over the world, it shouldn't be too hard to meet, or find one and ask them for some facts. Of course I would suggest humbleness if you are to approach one of the members.
I'm posting this not in favor or against Musashi Sabutai. I just feel that we should take a closer look before trying to pass such emotional judgment.

1) I talked to several pple I know and were both school and dojo mates with in Japan to look into the school. One I am very confident would find anything on the school if it existed because like me he is a huge MA geek. Muashi said the school was connected to Shinkage Ryu. There has been no evidence of that.

2) Getting into a MA hall of fame or even on a "Soke/Grandmaster" Council/hall/group/etc. Isn't really that hard. Almost a decade ago I did and experiment to see if I could be recognized as a Grandmaster of a made up art. I was asked for a resume that was honest but fluffed. (ie I put things like "Hand picked to train Ranger and SF soldiers" truth is I was the only actual instructor and I was in a Inf unit where there are usually Ranger tabbed and one or two former group guys, my commander at the time was) The bottom line was if I adhered to their bylaws and paid my dues I was good.

**Da Pope** · Posted On: 9/17/2009 2:06pm

Originally Posted by ronin497

Ahem.

A genuinely skilled person and a decent human being doesn't have the compulsive need to embellish their accomplishments.

Sorry but thats a rather niave statement.

**dougguod** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 12:18am

Originally Posted by ronin497

Ahem.

A genuinely skilled person and a decent human being doesn't have the compulsive need to embellish their accomplishments.

I agree, hence the "more or less" qualifier. Without picking apart semantic nuances, however, let's focus on the content of my post, two important aspects of which you may have overlooked.

1) I said that was my opinion at that time, meaning over a decade ago, based on the information (which was nothing) and personal experience (which was marginally more than nothing) I had at that time .

2) I concluded my post by saying, not forcefully enough it seems, that I wouldn't train with Sabutai Musashi again or refer others to him because the information I have now makes it clear to me that he is a fraud. My observation that Musashi, unlike Matthew Morton, Doug DeRenzo, Jerry Peterson, Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, etc. happens to be a fraud with some real ability was not intended to excuse or condone his dishonesty. There are plenty of teachers with both talent and scruples. I will pick one of them every time, and would encourage others to do the same.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 12:45am

Originally Posted by Da Pope

Sorry but thats a rather niave statement.

Please explain the logic behind that.

**ronin497** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 3:14am

Originally Posted by Da Pope

Sorry but thats a rather niave statement.

I see you list your style as Yellow Bamboo Kung Fu.

If that's truly the case, you calling me naive is pretty damned funny.

**JingMerchant!** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 4:18am

Originally Posted by Da Pope

Sorry but thats a rather niave statement.

Lets look at what he said:-

Originally Posted by ronin497

Ahem.

A genuinely skilled person and a decent human being doesn't have the compulsive need to embellish their accomplishments.

There's such a thing as padding out your CV, as Asia did to demo how easy it is getting into the MA hall of fame.

But I believe the Key word in Mr ronins post is in bold.

I think, what you have to say Mr Pope, says more about how you view people in general.

**Da Pope** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 5:45am

Originally Posted by JingMerchant!

Lets look at what he said:-

There's such a thing as padding out your CV, as Asia did to demo how easy it is getting into the MA hall of fame.

But I believe the Key word in Mr ronins post is in bold.

I think, what you have to say Mr Pope, says more about how you view people in general.

Your right, I tend to find people who make all sorts of claims about how they think 'decent' people should behave, as niave.

There are many good people who tell all sorts of lies about themselves due mostly to insecurity in themselves. But they have good hearts and would go out of their way to help out.

I am not endorsing Sabutai's behavour btw. Just the presumption that all good people dont lie compulsively.

**ronin497** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 5:58am

Originally Posted by Da Pope

I am not endorsing Sabutai's behavour btw. Just the presumption that all good people dont lie compulsively.

The distinction in this case is that the man has perpetuated what seems to be lies upon lies upon lies, and using this all the while for financial and personal gain. Whether it's that he's so wrapped up in his fantasy of what he believes himself to be, or that he's embellishing what he thinks people want to hear, it's all the same thing.

The guy down at the VFW bar scamming drinks telling bullshit stories about being in Force Recon/SEALs/Rangers/NSA/CIA/Operation Phoenix, the phony Wapanese bullshit artist selling repackaged martial arts parlor tricks to other Japanophiles, and the sociopathic 18-year old kid who learns just enough accounting practices to run check kiting scams and build a fraudulent 240 million dollar carpet cleaning empire are the same thing in my opinion.

They're all examples of people who have made it their life's practice to approach dealings with manufactured and bolstered claims of who they really are and what they've done.

An honest veteran/martial arts instructor/entrepreneur doesn't need to do this. They can let their achievements stand on their own, and aren't so wrapped up in their insecure egos that they need to pad it for their own, or other peoples' benefit.

I disagree with you here. A person who sees fit to manufacture or embellish their life story/experience doesn't get a pass simply because they might be an otherwise decent guy. You're training people, and that means trust is placed in you. You violate that by entering into the game bilking students to stroke your own ego, and you deserve scorn and contempt...not mollycoddling and discussion of your better qualities.

**Yoj** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 6:11am

He is a fakey fake mcfake, and as such doesnt deserve to have anyone learning from him, it's really that simple, I don't care how good he is, learning from someone that sets the level by lying from the start is not a good life strategy.

**Da Pope** · Posted On: 9/18/2009 8:18am

Originally Posted by ronin497

The distinction in this case is that the man has perpetuated what seems to be lies upon lies upon lies, and using this all the while for financial and personal gain. Whether it's that he's so wrapped up in his fantasy of what he believes himself to be, or that he's embellishing what he thinks people want to hear, it's all the same thing.

The guy down at the VFW bar scamming drinks telling bullshit stories about being in Force Recon/SEALs/Rangers/NSA/CIA/Operation Phoenix, the phony Wapanese bullshit artist selling repackaged martial arts parlor tricks to other Japanophiles, and the sociopathic 18-year old kid who learns just enough accounting practices to run check kiting scams and build a fraudulent 240 million dollar carpet cleaning empire are the same thing in my opinion.

They're all examples of people who have made it their life's practice to approach dealings with manufactured and bolstered claims of who they really are and what they've done.

An honest veteran/martial arts instructor/entrepreneur doesn't need to do this. They can let their achievements stand on their own, and aren't so wrapped up in their insecure egos that they need to pad it for their own, or other peoples' benefit.

I disagree with you here. A person who sees fit to manufacture or embellish their life story/experience doesn't get a pass simply because they might be an otherwise decent guy. You're training people, and that means trust is placed in you. You violate that by entering into the game bilking students to stroke your own ego, and you deserve scorn and contempt...not mollycoddling and discussion of your better qualities.

Fair enough.