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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2009 5:38pm

    staff
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost

    Gezere

    Sirc



    That's not even an exhaustive list, just the top three that jumped to mind.
    Omega
    Myself
    Ozz
  2. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2009 5:44pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Omega
    Myself
    Ozz
    You and Omega were the next two on my list. I don't know OZZ, but I have no reason to doubt you.
  3. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2009 6:53pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a Geek of the DnD/Anime persuasion, though less Anime than Sirc. The MA scene is infested with geekery.
  4. Blix is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2009 2:17pm

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     Style: Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright. I knew all MAers are geeks, but I think I figured they were a smaller percentage of the geek whole and thusly there'd at least be some standing room left at the Tai Chi demo, but nooooo.

    I apologize for anyone who I might've accidentally considered to be a "cool dude." I owe you all a comic from the dollar bin.
  5. ciscodog is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2009 3:17pm


     Style: shorin ryu/bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think I remember this particular gentleman.....the guy im thinking of used a cane to get around though. My old roomy may of even trained under him a bit. His training seemed sporadic rather than a mon-sat schedule, more like when the guy was around. My roomy i think told me he needed the cane because his knee was gone from nhb fights or some such, it was awhile ago.
  6. Turan is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2009 4:12pm

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     Style: bujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dragon Con Martial-arts demo 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Chimaira View Post
    Relating it back to the thread, it is pretty clear that he targets those people in the crowd who want to be bad asses just like the characters they like to watch because a good number of them don't know martial arts beyond samurai and ninja. That's probably why he doesn't go to JapanFest, only a couple of weeks from DC. Plenty of martial arts demos there, but I doubt the crowd would be quite as receptive, and I am sure he would be overshadowed by the number of very talented groups who attend. He might also run the risk of pissing off some of the Japanese instructors with his less than credible claims.
    The previous poster was mis-informed. He was actually at JapanFest a few years ago.
    So many people post on the forums with feelings towards or against what they saw...it is natural. However: "Emotions cloud judgment." You can hate me later for quoting Star Wars.
    Now lets take a look at this whole thing from a logical stand point.
    Some people discredit him because there is no evidence of the Ninkage-Ryu school in Japan. Well who did they talk to? It's hard to disprove that something isn't real because you haven't talked to someone who knows about it. Also, I think that people forgot that there were two A-bombs dropped in Japan and that destroyed many of the records. That should also be investigated.
    Another user posted something where they wondered why so many students left his school. Well that is easy- Most people fall under the stupid or jerk category...or both. Sorry for the bluntness. In very formal schools (those who arn't out to just make money), usually 1-5 out of 100 students make it to black belt. I am not surprised, by a logical basis, that many students did not stay.
    Seeing how un-seriously Americans take serious martial-arts training...I'm not surprised when I go to several dojo's and see only a handful of students training.
    I looked up the information and he IS in the Martial-arts Hall of Fame. (USKA) Just as a previous user commented on. It is very difficult to get into the USKA Hall of Fame. I believe that thereh as to be a unanimous vote to get someone in, along with several other qualifications.
    Has anyone asked other Hall of Fame members about him? I believe they have annual meetings. Since Martial-arts Hall of Fame members live all over the world, it shouldn't be too hard to meet, or find one and ask them for some facts. Of course I would suggest humbleness if you are to approach one of the members.
    I'm posting this not in favor or against Musashi Sabutai. I just feel that we should take a closer look before trying to pass such emotional judgment.
    Last edited by Turan; 9/15/2009 4:22pm at .
  7. Chimaira is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 1:49pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, I checked the wayback machine and he was there once in 2005. I based my assumption on having gone most years since 2000 and not remembering his being there. I was there in 2005 and I don't even remember that, but whatever.

    I think you may be missing the point in focusing on no one knowing of Ninkage-ryu as the reason why he may be a fraud. There are enough obscure martial arts lineages in the world that I can understand the possibility of it existing. What likely makes him a fraud is the rest of the story: undefeated in NHB fights, claims of strange energy powers, claims of training military and special forces, being trained from a young age after being adopted by a Japanese martial arts master, and having an unrealistic Japanese name despite the fact that he is a very white man whose Anglo name was given out earlier on the thread. Those claims, not a single one of which have been verified in the slightest degree, increase the likelihood of fraud well beyond the lack of provable origins of his style. Since you wanted to take a look at this from a logical perspective, try looking at those claims from a logical perspective. Either the man has lead a near miraculous and serendipitous life without flaw in his martial arts competition career and has somehow managed to manifest powers that have never been proven to exist in any human ever, or he is bullshitting you. I vote for the latter.

    As for the USKA Hall of Fame membership, I do not know of its standards nor of its other members. I tried viewing their webpage, but their webmaster needs to learn how to cast his variables. It was unviewable as of this writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turan View Post
    The previous poster was mis-informed. He was actually at JapanFest a few years ago.
    So many people post on the forums with feelings towards or against what they saw...it is natural. However: "Emotions cloud judgment." You can hate me later for quoting Star Wars.
    Now lets take a look at this whole thing from a logical stand point.
    Some people discredit him because there is no evidence of the Ninkage-Ryu school in Japan. Well who did they talk to? It's hard to disprove that something isn't real because you haven't talked to someone who knows about it. Also, I think that people forgot that there were two A-bombs dropped in Japan and that destroyed many of the records. That should also be investigated.
    Another user posted something where they wondered why so many students left his school. Well that is easy- Most people fall under the stupid or jerk category...or both. Sorry for the bluntness. In very formal schools (those who arn't out to just make money), usually 1-5 out of 100 students make it to black belt. I am not surprised, by a logical basis, that many students did not stay.
    Seeing how un-seriously Americans take serious martial-arts training...I'm not surprised when I go to several dojo's and see only a handful of students training.
    I looked up the information and he IS in the Martial-arts Hall of Fame. (USKA) Just as a previous user commented on. It is very difficult to get into the USKA Hall of Fame. I believe that thereh as to be a unanimous vote to get someone in, along with several other qualifications.
    Has anyone asked other Hall of Fame members about him? I believe they have annual meetings. Since Martial-arts Hall of Fame members live all over the world, it shouldn't be too hard to meet, or find one and ask them for some facts. Of course I would suggest humbleness if you are to approach one of the members.
    I'm posting this not in favor or against Musashi Sabutai. I just feel that we should take a closer look before trying to pass such emotional judgment.
  8. dougguod is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2009 2:24am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Greetings. I've been lurking at Bullshido for a few years now but never had any intention of actively participating. For me, martial arts are basically a hobby so I felt I lacked the depth of budo background of many of the regulars around here and therefore had nothing worthwhile to add...
    (dramatic pause)... until now! Kidding aside, I thought I should relate my own anecdote about meeting and training with Sabutai Musashi. Before I get into my story I should disclose right up front that I have no particularly deep insight to offer; I took one lesson with Mr. Musashi roughly a dozen years ago, which hardly makes me an expert on the guy. Still, I figured I might as well tell the tale. After doing so, I hope not to be labelled as either a supporter or a detractor of Musashi, as I'm neither. I have no stake at all in the man's success or failure. This concludes the long-winded introduction portion of the post. On to the substance.

    In the early 1990's I was a student at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee where I was becoming acquainted with various martial disciplines through classes offered by the Sport and Recreation department. One day, I was in the Rec Center in the Student Union and
    somehow got to talking with a guy named Jeff. I don't recall Jeff's last name or how/why we initially began chatting, but the conversation revolved mostly, maybe entirely, around martial arts. After relating my meager experience Jeff began to tell me about his sensei, Sabutai Musashi. I did recognize the name Musashi and thought it was a, shall we say, "fortuitous" name for a martial arts instructor to have. I wasn't exactly suspicious, though, because I had no idea how common the name might be in Japan. Jeff went on to tell me how gifted Musahi-Sensei was. I don't remember the full conversation after all these years, but i can still recall some points. Jeff did mention that Musashi had been in a car accident that had left him with some permanent damage but that was o.k. because it afforded him an excuse to carry around a cane, which he was supposedly quite adept with. Jeff made it clear, though, that Musashi's injuries were far from debillitating. He claimed Musashi was an expert in using pressure points, and demonstrated on me by lightly pressing one at the base of my skull, which did cause minor discomfort. Jeff also claimed that Musashi could throw a coin hard enough to embed it in a wall and kick through car tires with his shin. I wasn't in desperate need of those two particular skills at that point in my life, but I was intrigued enough by the totality of the conversation to agree to accompany Jeff to a lesson soon after. It may even have been that very evening.

    Jeff picked me up and we talked a little more on the drive over. Again, details are fuzzy now, but he did explain that it was a fairly traditional school in terms of technique and dojo etiquette. I do recall one specific thing Jeff said in regards to the latter. He mentioned that students were not allowed to wear certain colors in class. Red was reserved for grandmasters while blue and gray were limited to wepon and empty hand masters, I forget specifically which was which. I had never heard of this custom before (or since - maybe the koryu folks can weigh in) but it seemed too trivial a detail to pursue. Jeff also mentioned that Musashi was extremely sensitive to cigarette smoke so he had to refrain from lighting up for some time before each class.

    We arrived at the class location, which turned out to be in a nearby elementary or middle school. Sorry, I don't remember the name. We went to a classroom on the second floor where five or six guys wearing black gi or sweatpants/ t-shirts were already present. Not long after, Sabutai Musashi himself showed up. I was a little surprised to see that he was a white guy, I would guess in his early thirties, average height and build. Like I said before, though, I didn't dwell on the matter. Viewed in the most charitable light,America is the "melting pot" after all, so an anglo with an Asian name wouldn't be unheard of, although my own feeling was that he picked the name deliberately because of its samurai connotation. Odd, but not necessarily nefarious. He was walking with a cane, but didn't appear to rely on it excessively and was later able to move and demonstrate material just fine. By the way, he was wearing a red and white shirt. Anyway the class itself...

    Musashi-Sensei began by briefly demonstrating some cane attacks and defenses. All competently done, but of course the student he was working with was somewhat (though not entirely) compliant. The cane stuff was really just an icebreaker, as we moved on to empty hand material. I've long since forgotten the specific techniques we covered but I vaguely recall it being basic strikes, locks, and takedowns, not unlike what I had learned when I dabbled in karate, and later in aikido and judo. All solid, functional material, but to my admittedly novice eye, nothing really revolutionary.

    During the class, Mr. Musashi would walk around the room critiquing and correcting students, even engaging in some banter with his regulars. He seemed like a personable sort of guy, even when he was relating some decidedly unpleasant stories of his suppsed adventures. One of the stories he related was the baseball bat tale Chimaira alluded to earlier. In the version he told us that night, Musashi was in high school when he was challenged by some other kid. Musashi brought a bat, which the other kid assumed Musashi planned to use himself out of fear of a fair fight. Not so, according to Musashi. He said he gave the bat to the other guy beacause attackers with weapons generally become, as he phrased it, "headhunters" , which makes them more dangerous but also more predictable. According to Musashi, sure enough, the attacker swung for his head as expected and was immediately put down hard. I thought, at the time, that the strategy might have some merit, though I strongly doubted that a teenager would have the presence of mind to come up with such a plan, much less the nerve to go through with it. An even more, uh, "interesting" story concerned an encounter with multiple attackers. Allegedly, around eight thugs surrounded Musashi for some reason and made it clear that they were going to mess him up. Knowing he couldn't beat that many opponents, Musashi claims he strode up to the biggest guy, tore off both off his ears and tossed them at the others. Big guy starts puking, the others run away screaming, Musashi goes on about his business. I frankly didn't believe that story at all, but there are undoubtedly people in the world with the skill and/or savagery to do such things, so make of that story what you will. Afterwards, Musashi did demonstrate what was ostensibly the correct way to rip off an ear, saying it only took eight pounds of pressure per square inch, but one had to fold the ear just right. He also demonstarted how to gouge out an eye, which he explained needed only three pounds of pressure. I have yet to field-test either move. Volunteers? After that brief diversion into maiming techniques we resumed the more mainstream attack and defend drills which, on that night at least, were all done with very minimal contact.

    I think the class lasted for a couple of hours. Musashi-Sensei had to leave early for some reason, so one of his students took over. We continued the taijutsu stuff for a while (for the record, I don't remember if that term was actually used in class, it merely seems to me now an apt description) then wrapped up with an awareness drill. The way that worked was that the students paired up and knelt in seiza, both partners facing forward, one several feet behind the other. The student at the rear would stare and point at one of the front student's shoulders, and the front student was supposed to somehow feel which shoulder was being "targeted" then raise the hand on the correct side of the body before turning around to check his accuracy. While doing the exercise I did actually feel a sort of warmth on one shoulder or the other,but when I turned to check I was only right half the time, maybe less. Certainly no more than could be explained by random chance. Some of the veteran students did claim that they could do it with greater reliability but nobody claimed 100% accuracy.

    So after all that, what's my bottom line? At the time I beleived Sabutai Musahi to be a genuinely skilled teacher and more or less decent person who seemed prone to exaggerating his accomplishments. There was no discussion of his lineage, being adopted by a samurai master ("Bloodsport", anyone?), an undefeated pro fight career, or training police and military special ops members (as an aside, Jeff mentioned one particularly talented and aggressive student who was entering the military, which Jeff felt was the ideal place for him), so there were no definite red flags to scare me off back then. I would have been willing to go back and continue classes, at least for the rest of the semester, but every time I called Jeff, he was "busy". After hearing that a few times I figured I was being brushed off so I moved on and never heard anything more about Musashi. My local phonebook did , for a time,have an ad that simply read "Ninkage Ryu: A Style of Ninjutsu" followed by a phone number, but I never associated it with Musashi. Either no one had mentioned the name of the style or I had forgotten it. After reading this thread, as well as an older one on Mr. Musashi started by Wounded Ronin and a linked discussion on e-budo , I would no longer be intersted in studying with him if the opportunity arose. I find myself with enough doubts about his integrity to make his skill moot in my mind. Other posters in this thread clearly have a very strong view to the contrary. To them, and to Musashi-San himself if they aren't one in the same I say, best of luck. No reason for a grudge on my part, and no interst in fighting on either side of the debate if it continues.

    Doug Smith
    Last edited by dougguod; 9/17/2009 2:32am at .
  9. ronin497 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2009 4:14am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ex-Tomiki Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahem.

    A genuinely skilled person and a decent human being doesn't have the compulsive need to embellish their accomplishments.
  10. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/17/2009 4:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by otlndr View Post
    Wow, I can't believe anyone even knew I had posted. Figured the thread was deader than Dicken's doornail.
    Two reasons why no paragraphs. First, as stated, I didn't think anyone would read this. Didn't realize this site sent you a line when someone responded to you. Second, I was bored and passing the time. And oh, hey, a third! Most of the people on this site aren't worth the trouble.
    Forgetting all that, why don't ya shut ya trap and actually READ what I wrote. I never said that meeting him would teach you his history. I even said that I didn't care about his history. I said that meeting him would show you that he can do at least most of the things he says he can. Again, whether or not his story is true, he is an incredible martial artist. I just think people should judge the man by what he can do, not by what he says, or by what other people have quoted him as saying.
    People are on here who haven't met him and calling him a total fake. He's skilled, and funny, and handles an audience well. So what if he makes stuff up to get people to at least watch him. Then they can see how good he really is.
    And my point wasn't that you have to go to a 'fantasy' to meet him. He's in the area and knows that there are people at the con that would love to see what he's got. If you were him you would be there too. Heck, the local forensics people have a booth at the con showing off their stuff. If you got skills, show em off where people will appreciate them.
    My point still stands though. You're so intimidated by his 'hard style' abilities that you'll just sit here and bark like a yappin dog, hopin against hope that he won't find out and come show you how good he is.
    Before you insult the man and his abilities, meet him, get a demonstration. Maybe ask him to spar with you. Judging from the way you talk, I'd bet you'd last a whole 5, maybe even 6 seconds.
    You don't want to believe that he's good, so you sit there and ream on him, without ever really checking him out. He doesn't deserve that. And you should hold yourself above such pettiness. But if someone did the same to you, you'd get offended and start tryin to flame them and what not. Grow up.
    A lady openly questioned his claims at the con. He didn't get mad. He invited it. Welcomed it. No matter how false his claims about his past, that makes him a better man than most of the folks on forums like this, who have nothing better to do with their time than try to destroy the rep of a man they don't even know. Why do you even care what he claims?
    ROFLMAO!!!!

    "Hard style" seriously!?!?!

    In case you missed any of my posts on this subject, I have met and TRAINED with him TWICE! (Also many Bullies have seen him but probably don't recall. He was at the Japanese restaurant we went to after the Mega in ATL at Jacare's place.) Anyways, to be blunt I would mop the floor with him. For his age I give him much credit for being to do what he can but truth of the matter is I can go through his training no sweat and I seriously doubt he could go through mine without issue.

    He is a showman, I definitely give him that, and he is good at what he does. AFIK he doesn't have his own dojo per se but goes around conducting a lot of seminars. I haven't met any long time students of his but have met many who have trained with him through seminars. All of them already belong to another dojo.

    As far as the stories go, I believe he tales colorful tales to get pple intrested however that doesn't mean that pple should over look the fact that the history he tells about himself and his art can be completely fictional.

    With that said, if you don't really have anything to add please simply STFU because you are doing exactly what you accuse others of.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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