Ninkage ryu bujutsu and Sabutai Musashi

[Tom Kagan]

Tom Kagan, a simple Google search will provide you with your requested information within minutes, after which a phone call or two will allow you to get in touch with him fairly easily. You could have taken that simple initiative without wasting my time and yours by asking.

What gives you the idea I haven't looked? My searching has not turned up a way to contact *him*.

Of course, if you were truly interested in helping and not wasting your or my time, you would have have been quicker and easier to give a way to contact him. I don't find it particularly surprising you chose not to.

[Gezere]

Crackfox, you're attempting to discredit someone without bothering to get all of the facts. Have you attempted to contact Sabutai? If you have not even taken the effort to allow Sabutai to clarify things for you, then you're just spreading rumours, and perhaps even committing libel. You're treading on thin ice.

Jeffrey, I am by no means a gullible person. In fact, I'm quite the opposite, being generally skeptical of anything which appears to be out-of-the-norm. I've given this forum information regarding my experiences with Sabutai in order to attempt to curb the pervasive lynch mob mentallity, and to attempt to encourage those with questions or doubts to contact Sabutai directly, with respect. If this forum's true goal is to validate, and not to simply ignorantly slander, then proper research, ESPECIALLY contacting people in question, should be done before martial artists (who SHOULD be holding themselves to a higher standard) engage in slanderous onslaught.

I'm wondering if some of the views expressed here may be based on fear. The previous childish, cowardly infiltration attempt and the apparent lack of willingness to contact Sabutai before now seems to indicate some sort of mass fear, IMO. It seems to me that any responsible adult who wanted to get to the bottom of this would have taken a responsible initiative to meet the issues head-on. Instead, I've seen nothing but *****-footing around here.

If you want answers, contact Sabutai, WITH RESPECT, and let him know that you have some questions about his experiences and claims, and ask him if he would mind taking a little time to clarify and perhaps answer some questions. If approached with respect, I think he'd be more than willing to talk about it. I know that he has had problems with other martial artists and systems making ridiculous claims about themselves in the past, so I would imagine that he would embrace the opportunity to clarify for those who may view him in that light. However, if not approached with respect, I can pretty much guarantee that the discussion won't happen.

As far as my personal relationship with Sabutai, that's nobody's business. It's personal. What I'd be happy to share is that Sabutai has taught me things which changed and enriched my life, in ways that I could have never imagined. Without his influence, my entire life would have undoubtedly been much different. To see people ignorantly attack him absolutely disgusts me.

So, if you people have any honor or scruples whatsoever, and have any motives for being here other than boosting your own egos by senselessly bashing others, you'll contact Sabutai. Any further aspersions cast on Sabutai on this forum, without the truth being properly saught, can only be construed as slander.

Mike,

I have met with Subatai twice now and I can say to date that NOTHING he said about his martial past that he told me has been confirmed. Mind you I lived in Japan and I have a pretty substanial library when it comes to JMA and I still have connections in Japan.

NO ONE has heard of Ninkage Ryu. No one connected with Shinkage Ryu has heard of it, which again he claimed it was an offshot of. No one has heard of Musashi Yoshiaki! (which seems that he created the name from Miyamoto MUSASHI and Ashikaga YOSHIAKI who called Miyamoto's father the best MArtist in Japan at one point).

So basically the truth has been sought so far its not matching up with what was claimed.

[Drekos]

I studied with Sabutai in 1981 and 1982, in Glendale Heights, Illinois. He was an amazing martial artist and teacher. I personally witnessed and experienced many things with Sabutai which were ... hmmm ... unexplainable, contrary to logical possibilities, and yet they really did happen. Honestly, if I told you some of these events, no doubt that the nay-sayers here would be screaming "BS" at the top of their lungs." ..." There are no parlor tricks," ..." HONESTLY, nothing he could make-up could be as amazing as he truly is. He's one of a kind."
.

this guy is pretty obviously Mr. Musashi himself. Im a writing major in college and its pretty clear that the language hes using is overly sensational and obviously practiced. just like the speaking would be from the big schemer Mr. Musashi himself. If he isnt actually THE man hes definitely an accomplice, but given the nature of Moore, who seems an obvious case of either hystrionic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, or borderline personality disorder (they share many of their definitive traits and its possible to have more than one). Id say the chance of him actually making any real friends is scarce.

[Drekos]

Crackfox, you're attempting to discredit someone without bothering to get all of the facts. Have you attempted to contact Sabutai? If you have not even taken the effort to allow Sabutai to clarify things for you, then you're just spreading rumours, and perhaps even committing libel. You're treading on thin ice.

...proper research, ESPECIALLY contacting people in question, should be done before martial artists (who SHOULD be holding themselves to a higher standard) engage in slanderous onslaught.

I'm wondering if some of the views expressed here may be based on fear. The previous childish, cowardly infiltration attempt and the apparent lack of willingness to contact Sabutai before now seems to indicate some sort of mass fear, IMO. It seems to me that any responsible adult who wanted to get to the bottom of this would have taken a responsible initiative to meet the issues head-on. Instead, I've seen nothing but *****-footing around here.

This is a prime example OF

Bullshidoka Argument #2 - Questioning the ability of posters here to make informed judgments.

Counter - Similar to the counter for argument #1. The presence of skilled practioners of a variety of styles is one of Bullshido.net's greatest assests. That said, you don't have to be able to sing to identify someone who can't (American Idol, anyone?).

Same concept, except here its with "you dont have enough information". Well sorry bub, a few of the people who have commented here actually DO have experience training with him/you. So thats not going to fly.

[Drekos]

Jeffrey, your response infers that you consider people guilty until proven innocent. I will not waste my time trying to covince you of anything. Since you said, "He is worth very little of our time and energy.", I will extend you the same discourtesy.

...

I've shed ample doubt on the negative statements made upon Sabutai. Now, if you have honor and self-respect, you will cease until the time that you have each taken the personal effort to discover the truth about this man. Further ignorant, ill-informed postings will only serve to cast negativity on your own reputation.

*bow*

Bullshidoka Argument #3 - Refusal to provide information because people were not polite.
This argument also sets the stage for a future refusal to provide information even to a polite request - the Bullshidoka need merely say, "I am not providing information to any of you because you were mean to me."

Counter - Subtance over form. If the person is willing and able to provide information that would help prove their point, it is reasonable to assume that they would do so in most situations.

Im sure you can find even more examples in his arguments where he uses textbook examples of bullshido arguments, because thats what his whole life is, he probably doesnt even know hes doing it, its the only way he can really react with other people.

Anyone else find it really convenient how this guy just pops up out of nowhere to defend R. Moore and has no other contributions to bullshido? Musashi probably googled himself (something he must do fairly often in his vanity) and found this forum post.

Hey. I'm on to you. *katchow*

[Drekos]

There are plenty of fakes and phonies out there to expose, and I'm ALL for that, but Sabutai is the genuine article. I'd stake my life on it. I'd stake my kids' lives on it.

ok for me this is the real clincher (bad MA joke) no normal human being would stake their kid's lives on the reputation of some bullshit ninjitsu teacher (a style that is so strewn with questionables since the MA itself was outlawed for so long, I myself have seen little evidence that the real ninjutsu still exists) except for a monster like the oh so precious Sabutai.

Justice is best served with a can of whoopass on the side.

[otlndr]

Whether or not Sabutai Musashi's claims to his history are true. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't be the first to make such false claims...but you have to face the simple fact that the man is amazing. For those who say that they can't find a way to get in touch with him, just come to dragoncon and meet him. You say you can't find proof of claims, but can YOU prove that you looked. Maybe you just want to assume its false then claim to have searched. How do we know? You're claims have less proof than his. At least he has the skills to back up his claims...all ya'll have is your runnin' mouths. Simple fact is your lil feelin's are hurt because he could slap you around like a lil kid. You can't find proof of his history, but you have no proof he's lying either. You want to discredit him because you don't like the fact that he's better than you. You want to try to bring him down...to defeat him. You keep saying he should subject himself to experts to prove his claims, but even if he did you'd just start saying he paid them off. You want proof, then do like the man says, and go ask him yourself. let him prove himself on your broken bones. But you're little. Little men with little minds. You're too scared to seek the truth. You know he'd slap you around. So you sit here flappin your lips against him. Even if he is lying about his past, he's still a better person than any of you. He doesn't need to go around yapping at his betters to feel good about himself. Losers. And Michael F, lest you got some kinda visual proof of your time with him, quit whinin. And what kinda man stakes his kids life on someones rep. Jerk. They should be taken from you and you should be flogged and sodomized til you die. You whine almost as bad as that jeff guy. And he make's my kids look like quiet model citizens. And to those who claim to have trained in Japan and never heard of him or his style, grow up morons. You're claims have even less proof than those who claimed to research the man. You're just another loser claiming to have studied in Japan when we all know you're trainin consists of old Bruce Lee films in your mamas basement.

[CrackFox]

What is dragoncon? It sounds suspiciously like it might involve live action role playing? Am I warm?

[BoonDog]

What is dragoncon? It sounds suspiciously like it might involve live action role playing? Am I warm?

Here is what their site had to say.
http://www.dragoncon.org/

Dragon*Con is the largest multi-media, popular culture convention focusing on science fiction and fantasy, gaming, comics, literature, art, music, and film in the US.

Dragon*Con 2009 will be held Labor Day weekend (September 4 - September 7, 2009) in Atlanta, GA.

So, thanks for the thread necro otlndr. One year later and all you can say is we need to look harder and if we go to a fantasy event we will learn the "true" history.

[CrackFox]

Yeah I noticed that dragon con was already mentioned in the thread, but written as Dragon*Con so I missed it when I did a quick text search.

Still, if this LARPfest is a big thing for the guy, then I'm even less impressed than I was before.