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  1. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Nov 2012
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    San Diego
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2007 2:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    If there's anything that bothers me about the martial arts is this obsession with the "original art." Why in gods name do people think the original anything is ever any good? The first car? It sucked, especially compared to what we have today. The first episode of the Simpsons? Sketchy, sloppy, voices were off, sucked. First plane? Hell try the first dozen planes. All crashed.

    Why would martial arts be any different? But there is one thing all those initial attempts have in common with the original arts. They laid the groundwork with ideas for what we have accomplished today.

    In short, forget trying to recreate the art, and go work on your ground game. ;)
    I think you answered your own question. The value isnt in that the original system is necessarily better, but that it provides insight into where you are now. For instance I think its interesting to see the stuff BJJ used to teach and emphasize over what you might see today.
  2. steveg54 is offline

    Featherweight

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    Oct 2007
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    Posted On:
    11/03/2007 6:18am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bushi_no_ki
    praetorian, the Tracys exaggerated their involvement with EP. That's also why those of us who are EPAK practitioners tend to make fun of Tracy Kenpo. They basically undid everything EP did when they founded their style. Having five times as many techniques does not make a style better. One of the reasons EP cut the technique list to 156 was because he had a lot of excess, where the principals of motion had already been taught five times over.
    The Tracy's created a purely commercial "art". The hundreds of techniques in their system were scientifically designed to separate students from their money. I spent several years as a student and instructor of Tracy kenpo before swithcing to Parker kenpo. In those years I struggled (and so did my students) with trying to make the Tracy system and their ponderous catalog of techniques 'work'. They never did. Joe Lewis commented in Black Belt magazine several years ago that he ended his association with the Tracy's because it was a sysem of hundreds of unrelated techinues that would never work for real. He was right. (And its funny that many Tracy school owners still brag that Joe Lewis was in the Tracy system..apparently they never got the news that Joe bailed out). There is reason and logic behind the Parker system...and it works...(if you have a good instructor to show you the way)
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
    Ke?poFist's Avatar

    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Long Island, NY
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    6,885

    Posted On:
    11/03/2007 9:18am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54
    The Tracy's created a purely commercial "art". The hundreds of techniques in their system were scientifically designed to separate students from their money. I spent several years as a student and instructor of Tracy kenpo before swithcing to Parker kenpo. In those years I struggled (and so did my students) with trying to make the Tracy system and their ponderous catalog of techniques 'work'. They never did. Joe Lewis commented in Black Belt magazine several years ago that he ended his association with the Tracy's because it was a sysem of hundreds of unrelated techinues that would never work for real. He was right. (And its funny that many Tracy school owners still brag that Joe Lewis was in the Tracy system..apparently they never got the news that Joe bailed out). There is reason and logic behind the Parker system...and it works...(if you have a good instructor to show you the way)
    There an online version of a source to Joe's comments? I'd like to see it.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  4. steveg54 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    10

    Posted On:
    11/04/2007 8:22am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    There an online version of a source to Joe's comments? I'd like to see it.
    I really dont have an answer to that. The article was in Blackbelt magazine several (many) years ago. Perhaps searching through Blackbelts archives for Joe Lewis interviews would be the way to go.
  5. praetorian01 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 1:39am


     Style: many; box,TKD,croty,BJJ..

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahh, never took Tracy style myself. Hear they studied with EP in the way old days, years before he fixed things up. Sounds like they are screwed up as a dog's other hind leg. EP was into grafting and making the things that work fit together- not to be a separate entity from eachother.
    Last edited by praetorian01; 11/18/2007 6:08am at .
  6. draygin is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2007 10:24pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will make a brief as possible comment. The Tracys had intended to commercialize Kenpo. Ep got word from thier backers, (are they for real?). EP started showing them flawed techniques and partial techniques. Tracys opened their school and it just didn't work.

    EP dies. Tracys claim they went to Mitose. Mitose is up on charges for fraud claiming to be a minister and asking for donations for a Kempo school. Mitose's Kempo is nothing like Chow's and has no Circular motion. Tracys take up the reigns of fraud from Mitose. I heard this from many EP senior belts. I prefer not to give names, but the forms prove it. Mitose had no forms. Neither did Chow. EP added them. The Tracys said they went back to Mitose's forms. BULLSHIT according to everything I have ever been able to fine. EP was made fun of for adding forms. His own forms and Tiger Crane along with other non-Kenpo forms in order to preserve Chinese Karate. Mitose was Japanese and had no interest in Chinese Karate.

    Just what I know.

    KenpoFist, you seem to be the expert, respectfully, am I wrong as far as you know?
  7. draygin is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/01/2007 10:27pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kempofist, I met Joe Lewis in Philly. He said nearly the same thing back in 1991 I believe. He was distancing himself from the Tracys.
  8. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

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    Feb 2005
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2007 3:03am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by draygin
    The Tracys said they went back to Mitose's forms. BULLSHIT according to everything I have ever been able to fine. EP was made fun of for adding forms. His own forms and Tiger Crane along with other non-Kenpo forms in order to preserve Chinese Karate. Mitose was Japanese and had no interest in Chinese Karate.
    Mitose taught Niahanchi, at least. Chow knew and demonstrated forms but didn't necessarily teach them. EP's forms started with modified kung fu sets and were eventually revised into their current structure. Tracy forms split off midway through EP's forms development.
  9. krazy kaju is offline
    krazy kaju's Avatar

    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Location
    Metro Detroit
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2007 6:04pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OMG, KENPO LINEAGE WARS!

    When will you guys get over it and realize that ALL KENPO FORMS AND TECHNIQUES ARE USELESS ANYWAYS?

    If you want to train realistically, it's all about alive drills and sparring, not about practicing non-realistic 'techniques' on compliant partners.
  10. danjo is offline
    danjo's Avatar

    1st degree Black Belt in Kajukenbo Original Method

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    Dec 2003
    Location
    Fullerton, CA
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    418

    Posted On:
    12/03/2007 2:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    OMG, KENPO LINEAGE WARS!

    When will you guys get over it and realize that ALL KENPO FORMS AND TECHNIQUES ARE USELESS ANYWAYS?

    If you want to train realistically, it's all about alive drills and sparring, not about practicing non-realistic 'techniques' on compliant partners.
    Yeah, and I guess it's pointless for boxers to shadow box or work on combinations too eh?
    "I'll Try To Be Nicer, If You'll Try To Be Smarter "

    "When You Are Standing on the Edge of a Cliff a Step Forward Is Not Progress "

    "Stonehenge, where the demons dwell, where the banshees live and they do it well..."
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