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  1. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 12:01pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Recreating Mitose's Kenpo?

    Hey,

    I have some previous experience in the Tracy System of Kenpo, but I was wondering about the style that Mitose originally taught.

    Recently, I've been able to get my hands on Mitose's "What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu)," and was wondering if that is a good guide to recreating Mitose's art as he originally taught it (and perhaps as he originally learned it?).

    Also, does Kosho-Ryu Kenpo teach exactly what Mitose once taught, or has it evolved over time?

    Just wondering, as I cannot get any good info on this.

    Thanks for any replies.

    EDIT: BTW, don't try to get me wrong, I'm not trying to create another martial art, LOL. I'm just trying to get some historical insight into Kenpo, see how close the Tracy System is to it, and to see what *the original* Kenpo looked like before Mitose and then others added on to it.
    Last edited by krazy kaju; 9/04/2007 12:16pm at .
  2. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/10/2007 11:18pm


     Style: TMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kaju, I would hope that Kosho-ryu has evolved in the last fifty years, while still maintaining the spirit of the lineage. Something to remember is that MA is personal in nature. I could have studied Tracy's kenpo, under the same instructor, and still have a different personal style compared to you. So, the only way to truly recreate Mitose's Kenpo is to have Mitose teach it.
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2007 12:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If there's anything that bothers me about the martial arts is this obsession with the "original art." Why in gods name do people think the original anything is ever any good? The first car? It sucked, especially compared to what we have today. The first episode of the Simpsons? Sketchy, sloppy, voices were off, sucked. First plane? Hell try the first dozen planes. All crashed.

    Why would martial arts be any different? But there is one thing all those initial attempts have in common with the original arts. They laid the groundwork with ideas for what we have accomplished today.

    In short, forget trying to recreate the art, and go work on your ground game. ;)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  4. X_plosion is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2007 1:06am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to get a look at the book you mentioned, then the Tracy's website does have scans of it.
  5. danjo is offline
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    1st degree Black Belt in Kajukenbo Original Method

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2007 7:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    If there's anything that bothers me about the martial arts is this obsession with the "original art." Why in gods name do people think the original anything is ever any good? The first car? It sucked, especially compared to what we have today. The first episode of the Simpsons? Sketchy, sloppy, voices were off, sucked. First plane? Hell try the first dozen planes. All crashed.

    Why would martial arts be any different? But there is one thing all those initial attempts have in common with the original arts. They laid the groundwork with ideas for what we have accomplished today.

    In short, forget trying to recreate the art, and go work on your ground game. ;)
    However, there also comes a point where the "innovations" have made the original weaker. Judo was changed to emphasize throws for sporting reasons and de-emphasized the "boring" ground game. TKD and other Karate arts changed to accomodate tournaments (forms and fighting) and later kickboxing. When you go back to the original systems, they're much better suited to real fighting than their latter day sportish descendants. Not all innovations are good.
    "I'll Try To Be Nicer, If You'll Try To Be Smarter "

    "When You Are Standing on the Edge of a Cliff a Step Forward Is Not Progress "

    "Stonehenge, where the demons dwell, where the banshees live and they do it well..."
  6. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2007 12:42am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danjo
    However, there also comes a point where the "innovations" have made the original weaker. Judo was changed to emphasize throws for sporting reasons and de-emphasized the "boring" ground game. TKD and other Karate arts changed to accomodate tournaments (forms and fighting) and later kickboxing. When you go back to the original systems, they're much better suited to real fighting than their latter day sportish descendants. Not all innovations are good.
    Stop tearing apart my straw-men. They don't grow on trees you know!
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  7. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    :)

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2007 5:30am

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     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    time provides the insight that even great martial artists lack in the moment, styles adjust to the needs of the practitioners. Times change, needs change, styles change (I think I got a song going here). It's not corrupting, but more of a natural progression in a series of approaches, driven and defined by the needs of the day.

    That said, Judo may have been adjusted to a lower common denominator, but said changes may have helped pave the way for the popularity of the sport/art to this day. It's hard to say at what point things lose their impact on the proceedings. To have stayed the same, could have been detrimental to the flourishing of the art/sport.

    The UFC took out punching the family jewels, added gloves, and added weight classes to adjust for popularity and licensing. I know, sport to sport, but it watered down the proceedings. That doesn't mean it hurt the sport/art of mma. Judo's changes/re-emphasis may have drawn in new talent, who then refined and advanced the techniques as a whole.

    Not always good, but not always bad to change.
  8. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2007 11:20am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've done Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo and I think that it contains lots of Mitose influence, though you'd have to question Bruce Juchnik as to how much AK and other influences the style holds. The Kosho Shihan I work out under knows a lot of CMA and JJ and Chinese med and massage etc and I'm sure that was all added, as I imagine the 'naural law" stuff and tne Zen stuff.

    Check out Kara-Ho Kempo Karate, as it's a direct lineage style, also.

    http://www.karaho.com/locat.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mitose is a pretty good intro.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  9. praetorian01 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2007 11:28am


     Style: many; box,TKD,croty,BJJ..

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I'm not too off the mark- Tracy studies with EP in the way old days- it would be a lot closer to the origional than some. Also take a look at some okinawan style karate to finds some roots- also chinese boxing I would guess. I did both and later took kenpo and it seemed an evolved blend of the two. IMHO
  10. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2007 1:53pm


     Style: TMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    praetorian, the Tracys exaggerated their involvement with EP. That's also why those of us who are EPAK practitioners tend to make fun of Tracy Kenpo. They basically undid everything EP did when they founded their style. Having five times as many techniques does not make a style better. One of the reasons EP cut the technique list to 156 was because he had a lot of excess, where the principals of motion had already been taught five times over.
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