Question for you gym rats out there.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 9/06/2007 9:07am

tabwyo, your avatar, what the heck??? LOL.

**Donkey_Fizzle** · Posted On: 9/06/2007 11:26am

DrF. McGulicutties contribution. The avatar that is.

**Nid** · Posted On: 9/06/2007 12:18pm

Originally Posted by cyrijl

That's all I was saying. For someone who is just starting out all the advice can be a bit overwhelming. Because of the complexities, people can often be intimidated and not ask questions. It has nothing to do with the quality of advice, just the quantity. This is why Kein's sarcastic response was a bit unnecessary.

I was affirming your statement.

You should absoloutely be vigilant of all the nonsense terms and advice given, the basis of which is ultimately little more than "it worked for me".

:jerkit2yf

Especially when it comes to PT, if you say to yourself: "This doesn't make sense. I'm not sure the contributer fully understands what he's reccomending." 99 out of 100 times you'd be right.

In reality, absent of your proprietary task, the body doesn't respond in the multitude of ways which one would gather from a forum like this. There are basic responses so basic stressors.

Splitting up different kinds of strength...it's all bullshit. All of it. They are not found at the physiological level.

Endurance strength
Explosive strength
Anearobic strength
Speed strength
Loose power
Static strength
Etc etc

These are a matter of perception or external performance. Not changes inside the meat of your muscle. Why is that an important distinction? Because external performance cannot be effectively controlled for study very easily given the vast differences (besides a cubic inch of muscle tissue) which exist *between* individuals.

And why is THAT important? Because there *are* principals which apply to everyone. What gets in the way of articulating them is comparing the wrong things, like: "After I spar with weighted gloves, my hands feel so much quicker." Mother of ****, what insight!

Good litmus test for anything: How do you measure it? That puts people into SUCH a tizzy. Ahhhhh.....pro-athlete this, power-lifter that.

**cyrijl** · Posted On: 9/06/2007 1:58pm

Sorry I misunderstood your initial post.

**Emevas** · Posted On: 9/06/2007 8:56pm

Originally Posted by LI GUY 1

Look up West Side for Skinny Bastards. I have read the plan and it seems good. It was designed apparently as an alternative for new PL'ers but the guy found it more useful for training athletes who already had other training priorities.

It is a 3 day program (where WestSide is 4 I believe). It also has more unilateral exercises as he thinks they are good for sports (can't disagree).

Yeah, I've used WS4SB before. It's definitely a nice plan, although it's RE and lacks RE/DE on the lowerboyd, which was what I was getting around.

RB: Thanks for your perspective. I figured it'd have to be cut down to a full body in order to accomidate it.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 9/06/2007 10:51pm

Originally Posted by Kein Haar

I was affirming your statement.

You should absoloutely be vigilant of all the nonsense terms and advice given, the basis of which is ultimately little more than "it worked for me".

:jerkit2yf

Especially when it comes to PT, if you say to yourself: "This doesn't make sense. I'm not sure the contributer fully understands what he's reccomending." 99 out of 100 times you'd be right.

In reality, absent of your proprietary task, the body doesn't respond in the multitude of ways which one would gather from a forum like this. There are basic responses so basic stressors.

Splitting up different kinds of strength...it's all bullshit. All of it. They are not found at the physiological level.

Endurance strength
Explosive strength
Anearobic strength
Speed strength
Loose power
Static strength
Etc etc

These are a matter of perception or external performance. Not changes inside the meat of your muscle. Why is that an important distinction? Because external performance cannot be effectively controlled for study very easily given the vast differences (besides a cubic inch of muscle tissue) which exist *between* individuals.

And why is THAT important? Because there *are* principals which apply to everyone. What gets in the way of articulating them is comparing the wrong things, like: "After I spar with weighted gloves, my hands feel so much quicker." Mother of ****, what insight!

Good litmus test for anything: How do you measure it? That puts people into SUCH a tizzy. Ahhhhh.....pro-athlete this, power-lifter that.

So, in short, what would you suggest as answer or partial answer to tabwyo's question?

**LI GUY 1** · Posted On: 9/07/2007 2:29am

Originally Posted by Emevas

Yeah, I've used WS4SB before. It's definitely a nice plan, although it's RE and lacks RE/DE on the lowerboyd, which was what I was getting around.

RB: Thanks for your perspective. I figured it'd have to be cut down to a full body in order to accomidate it.

I know it lacks certain things, but I think the point is tat it is made for athletes. I never used it BTW, maybe I will try it out soon. I believe it lacks certain things from a traditional strength program because of the athletes other training practices.

For example, I remember reading on PowerLifting articles that box squats although great for power lifters would be a waste for athletes who use lifting/power lifting for strength gains. I don't remember if this is WS4SB's approach but it's just an example of how all the details of a traditional strength program may not apply to athleteswho use the program as a supplement to other training.

**Nid** · Posted On: 9/07/2007 9:20am

How would you work out if you wanted to gain in overal muscle stregnth and endurance yet avoid any weight gain?

How would I answer that?

Short answer:

I'd say grow more muscle with very abbreviated strength training, lose the equivalent weight of fat with careful accounting of one's calories, and pursue your sport as much as your body and schedule will allow.

In the outside chance one happens to grow more muscle than he wants, and or loses more fat than he wants, then ditch the strength training.

That tends not to happen, however.

Now, are we talking a specific routine?

And this is where (you may not guess), I'm almost infinitely flexible.

My rigidity lies in my insistence on refraining from fanciful NONSENSE TERMS. Nonsense marketing terms. "Speed strength". Jeez, who doesn't want that? Sounds awesome. That's such a convoluted by-product of so many things, and certainly not a measureable physiological property. Yes, it can be crudely explained as performance happenstance, but it's way out there at the end the line where the individual meets his task. Not where all human processes churn and metabolise.

This is where the onion meets my ointment, and the armadillo walks alone. :XXonlyamo

**SunTzu** · Posted On: 9/07/2007 11:01am

Originally Posted by LI GUY 1

I know it lacks certain things, but I think the point is tat it is made for athletes. I never used it BTW, maybe I will try it out soon. I believe it lacks certain things from a traditional strength program because of the athletes other training practices.

For example, I remember reading on PowerLifting articles that box squats although great for power lifters would be a waste for athletes who use lifting/power lifting for strength gains. I don't remember if this is WS4SB's approach but it's just an example of how all the details of a traditional strength program may not apply to athleteswho use the program as a supplement to other training.

The reason WS4SB doesn't have a second lower body day is because it's based off of programs designed for athletes who are doing drills and other sport-specific activities and may not have enough time to recover for another LB day.

tabwyo, I found this, might be a useful template for you.