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  1. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 3:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't say...
  2. cyrijl is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 3:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Someone comes on and says they want strength and endurance, but no weight gain. Well, the advice given frequently differs from earlier threads focused around the same question. I don't think it is out of line to post that there seems to be a lack of consistency when it comes to such matters. Some people just don't have the background to determine which is the best route to follow. Alot of people end up injured because of it.
    Last edited by cyrijl; 9/05/2007 3:33pm at .
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 3:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Could you quote some of those posts that differ from these ones? I'm curious as well. Keep in mind that everybody is different - tabwyo is an amateur fighter who's already in good shape. What he needs would be different from, say, a developing teenager that wants to begin weight lifting. Also, simultaneously training for strenght and endurance can be a bit mutually exclusive if done wrong. I could see strenght AND power/explosiveness, but strenght, power AND endurance (anaerobic endurance), that may require some carefully planned splits.

    Also, what people recommend may change over time. Everybody here is experimenting and adapting what they do. Unless the person is right in front of a trainer, the recommendations will vary. Heck, they may even differ from trainer to trainer.

    Regardless of his workout, he needs to keep his diet in check if he lifts heavy. That's a certain way to keep weight off.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 9/05/2007 3:44pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. cyrijl is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 3:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's all I was saying. For someone who is just starting out all the advice can be a bit overwhelming. Because of the complexities, people can often be intimidated and not ask questions. It has nothing to do with the quality of advice, just the quantity. This is why Kein's sarcastic response was a bit unnecessary.
  5. Donkey_Fizzle is offline

    Using Donkey Guard to Sniffz Your Feetz

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 4:42pm


     Style: Kick Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heres an example of a complex exercise I was fond of. But I started and finished in a squat position. I like to do 3 sets of 15 starting heavy and lightening the weight 5 pounds each time.
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    Amateur MMA record: 8-3-1
    Pro MMA record: 3-1
    Status: Semi retarded... I mean retired
  6. Emevas is offline
    Emevas's Avatar

    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 10:13pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raining_Blood
    The best advice so far is that to avoid gaining weight make sure you dont take in more calories than you expend.

    In terms of strength the programmes you have been prescribed so far mainly centre around maximum strength and its development. Im assuming compete in MMA or other combat sports so that means there are other areas of strength relevant to you besides maximum strength. You will also want to develop dynamic/explosive strength. Doing dynamic workouts is particulary usefu when trying to avoid weight gains but become stronger because it produces good strength benefits without putting on much muscle. To increase expolosive strength you basically need to move a submaximal weight at maximal speed. There are two basic ways to do this, olympic lifts or the accomodated resistance approach. Accomodated resistance refers to using chains/bands so that the weight is deloaded the the bottom of the movement. This means you can move the bar at maximal speed without the associated deceleration phase. Westside Barbell is huge on doing this. You can do this to any exercise but the box squat is the most common application.

    This is all good but unless you have access to alot of bands and chains it is pretty unpractical. When doing o-lifts make sure to use good form and sub maximal weights to ensure very high bar speed.

    In application I find it best to work both explosive and maximal strength within the same week. This normally means one whole body max strength and one dynamic strength workout but you can also break it down into upper and lower body.
    How would you manage to fit in DE and ME work with a combat athlete schedule? I'm a great fan of the Westside Method, but I don't really think it's practical for an inseason athlete to top onto a full workload, hence my focus on maximal strength. Most coaches I know work in some sort of dynamic effort work to some degree, if nothing more than a plyometric, whereas maximal strength tends to be what is lacking in a combat athletes routine.

    I'd love to see a sample routine if you have one in mind, as I've never really been able to find a way to fit in a full ME/DE schedule into my routine when I'm actively training, and a chance to fit it in would be nifty.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 10:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    How would you manage to fit in DE and ME work with a combat athlete schedule? I'm a great fan of the Westside Method, but I don't really think it's practical for an inseason athlete to top onto a full workload, hence my focus on maximal strength. Most coaches I know work in some sort of dynamic effort work to some degree, if nothing more than a plyometric, whereas maximal strength tends to be what is lacking in a combat athletes routine.

    I'd love to see a sample routine if you have one in mind, as I've never really been able to find a way to fit in a full ME/DE schedule into my routine when I'm actively training, and a chance to fit it in would be nifty.
    That's the crux of the matter I guess.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Donkey_Fizzle is offline

    Using Donkey Guard to Sniffz Your Feetz

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    between the moutains and some sagebrush
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 11:15pm


     Style: Kick Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Give me another 8 hours in a day and an extra body and I'd show you. As it stands though. I will not sacrifice my strength, which at this point is endurance. I want to add physical strength to that.
    Amateur MMA record: 8-3-1
    Pro MMA record: 3-1
    Status: Semi retarded... I mean retired
  9. LI GUY 1 is offline
    LI GUY 1's Avatar

    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Long Island
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 4:56am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Look up West Side for Skinny Bastards. I have read the plan and it seems good. It was designed apparently as an alternative for new PL'ers but the guy found it more useful for training athletes who already had other training priorities.

    It is a 3 day program (where WestSide is 4 I believe). It also has more unilateral exercises as he thinks they are good for sports (can't disagree).
  10. Raining_Blood is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
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    194

    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 5:41am


     Style: Wrestling, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    While I dont currently compete in any combat sports and have just finished a season of 5 a week, 2 hour practices so I understand the difficulties of time management. I agree that for an amataeur fighter inseason it would be hard to fit in both ME and DE.

    Just off the top of my head a sample schedule could be to do two workouts a week. One ME and one DE but instead of using the traditional westside split of upper/lower you could do whole body workouts. This obviously means you are going to stray pretty far from the original westside template but it should still provide a decent workout for example you could do:

    1# ME
    5x3 Bench Press (or variations)
    5x3 Deadlift/ Squat (or variations)
    3x8 Chinup (or variations) with weight if requried*
    3x8 Unilateral leg movement*

    2# DE
    8x2 Box Squat
    5x2 Power Clean
    5x2 Snatch

    *Can do one or both depending on time restraints
    Obviously its far removed from the Westside method and isnt really ideal but still uses the basic concepts
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