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  1. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:00pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not like the LHW division is desperate for talent anyway.

    But i mean there must have been literally half a second difference between the tap and the break in this fight compared to the Penn fight.

    Whether you admit it was with malicious intent or not, i still think it's double standards.

    Maybe BJ's saving grace was the respect he showed to Pulver at the end
  2. maurice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:06pm


     Style: Mo-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They're overreacting. The relevant time period is not (1) from the tap to release, but rather (2) from the ref's signal to release. Mazzagatti specifically tells fighters before the fight not to release just because of a tap, because there have been instances where the ref didn't see the tap and the losing fighter denied tapping.

    The statements about brain damage and broken limbs are ridiculous. Choking somebody to unconsciousness is relatively safe. No matter how many times Dana White says "what if he had an arm or a leg," the fact of the matter is that he didn't have an arm or a leg, and probably would have acted differently if the consequence was a broken arm instead of a nap. Yes, he should have let go earlier, but it wasn't that big of a deal.

    The Penn / Pulver fight is an excellent counter-example. Penn held the choke at least as long as Babalu held his (from the ref's signal to release). Plus, Penn spent the week before the fight telling everybody that he was going to break Pulver's shoulder and would continue to crank the sub even after Pulver tapped.
    Last edited by maurice; 9/01/2007 12:09pm at .
  3. kwoww is offline
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    poser

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:15pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The point is, White is trying to clean up MMA's image, and it was a very good move from a business point of view.

    You are right though. They probably should have just suspended him instead.
  4. MSphinx is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:18pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maurice
    They're overreacting. The relevant time period is not (1) from the tap to release, but rather (2) from the ref's signal to release. Mazzagatti specifically tells fighters before the fight not to release just because of a tap, because there have been instances where the ref didn't see the tap and the losing fighter denied tapping.
    The difference in this case is that Babalu kept the choke out of malice, as he has admitted. If he had explained his intent to be similar to what you posted, I don't think he would have been fired.
  5. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    I don't think BJ Penn, then said he did it because Pulver talked ****. If he had, he'd be setting himself up for the same treatment. Fighters don't always want to stop, that's understandable to most.... but anyone foolish enough to say they meant to hold on, just sucks for the sport.

    The UFC did what they felt they had to, after he put himself out on the PA. In a fighting sport, the stakes are higher than most competitions. Refusing to heed the tap, is the most dangerous thing in the sport (the opponent is, by definition, already beaten and relatively defenseless). It was a business decision, and one I agree with.
    I'm not sure, I need to see the video again, but there was a video interview where I believe Penn admitted that he held the choke with malicious intent, I don't know if it makes a difference that he didn't flat out say it right after the fight, but if that's the case, we're still dealing with a double standard.

    Yes, he should be fined; Yes, he should face suspension; Yes, he should feel like an idiot for overreacting over somebody calling him "mother fucker"; but for the UFC (who now owns most of the mayor events) to terminate his contract over something that other names on the sport (more mainstream names therefore more likely to be on the public eye) have done, is a little harsh and it makes it seem like they were looking for a scapegoat (IMHO)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  6. hpr is online now
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    Knock-off Cthulhu

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:29pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's definitely a scapegoat. A shame too, that match was pretty entertaining. I understand the decision from business end, but it's still all bullshit overreacting.

    Still, Babalu's an asshole for not reacting to the tap, I think he got his revenge already with those elbows.
    Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.
  7. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 12:41pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    bragging about it afterwords probably made the difference for the PTB.

    Just like anything else in business - what you can get away with and what you can get away with rubbing your bosses' noses in are two different things.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  8. TKD Black Belt is offline
    TKD Black Belt's Avatar

    Keeeeee-Yeah!

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 4:08pm


     Style: Whoo-Hoo-Fu!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    The bullshit was him not recognizing the tap,
    - I don't 'recognize' taps in a fight. I wait for the ref to stop the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    and releasing the hold at the ref's request.....
    - Mazzagatti did a shitty job of separating them. Regardless of what Babalu did Steve M should have separated them in a definitive manner. He first pushes on Babalu's shoulder then he pushes his forearm and then finally grabs the wrist. When the wrist is grabbed Bab's lets go and rolls off. This was at the most 3 seconds after Heath taps. Not bad in my books.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    there's a lot at stake for mma, right now. The fighters who can't abide by the rules, especially ones like that (respecting the tap) where brain damage/limb breakage can happen, shouldn't be in the game.
    - He put him to sleep. Its not like he had a kneebar and was cranking away on it or even say broke his forearm in a championship fight ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    The UFC didn't end his fighting career, but he sure as hell ended his own UFC career.
    - He'll be back. He'll fight a few times for K1 and then be back in the UFC.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja
    With lawmakers trying to ban the whole sport, who needs his bullshit? no one does, so though I enjoyed watching his fights, I'd rather him gone, than give some douche in Washington an excuse.
    - The fight wasn't shown. The only way you'd see it (outside of copy write infringement) is either live or at UFC on demand. I think the sport has taken some much more serious black eyes than this of late. Steroids anyone?

    Here's the thing, imo, that was wrong. Heath is bleeding from a cut to the forehead. Although not life threatening it makes it look like it is. The UFC needs to clean up the rules around what is and what is not acceptable when it comes to a cut. Do we stop the fight over a broken nose? How about a cut under the nose? Or maybe a cut on the bridge of the nose?

    We're using rules that were designed for boxing, not MMA. Correct this and get the refs more assertive (more like BJM or Dean) and we're going in the right direction. Punishing Bab's just seems vindictive.

    TKD

    THIS IS NOT AN EXIT


    "Ladies and gentlemen, the pilot has instructed everyone to sit the **** down and shut the **** up." Henry Rollins
  9. bob is offline
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    Prophet of Apathy

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 4:18pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think he was unlucky
    a- that he wasn't as big a name as some so couldn't get away with it,
    b- also because he happened to do it at a time when the UFC is really pushing into the mainstream
    c- also because it was a particularly bloody fight (which he can't be blamed for but probably didn't help)

    He was also pretty dumb to brag about it as Johnny said.

    That said, I can see the reasoning behind it. A lot of people are watching the UFC now and a lot of people emulate it. Sure Babalu and BJ Penn can hold a choke a little longer with a full time professional referee there and not put anyone in serious danger but what about some gimp in an amateur MMA show in Buttfuck Iowa with just enough experience to know how to apply a RNC who's a little pissed coz his opponent called him a cracker.

    MMA is walkign a tightrope in many areas even without anyone being permanently disabled or killed in a show. It'll just take one death to provide a rallying point for the haters who say it's just thuggery.
  10. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    :)

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2007 4:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mine may not be a popular opinion, but the UFC did the right thing. Bad blood between fighters is one thing. Assaulting the ref, or ignoring his instructions can have more serious consequences. Ignoring his instructions, then making explicit statements about wanting to hurt the other guy beyond the rules, should be taken seriously. It was a choke, not an armbar, but that doesn't mean he can do what he wants. Some moves are harder to break guys up from than ground and pound (then the ref just tackles the winner, off the other guy). A fighter is supposed to have some degree of restraint when he knows it's over. He's been in more fights than most, he knows better.

    Him trying to choke the guy unconcious, in a big event, after being told to stop, was asking for it, but to say some **** after, was assuring action. It's just tough on him...even if he's a scapegoat (which is obvious), it's his fault, and his alone. No one forced him to go too far.

    Was he counting on everyone going, "hey, you're such the big ****, it's ok you just openly turned a match into an assault, of sorts, over a rude name"??? Other fighters get leeway, but that doesn't mean they deserve it. Babalu forced the issue, tough **** for him.
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