Babalu Sobral cut from UFC - {Now with VID!!!}

**Necroth** · Posted On: 9/05/2007 10:31am

Nope, I meant what I typed...

verbage

/ver'b*j/ n. A deliberate misspelling and mispronunciation of verbiage that assimilates it to the word `garbage'. Compare content-free. More pejorative than `verbiage'.

As opposed to:

verbiage

noun
1. overabundance of words
2. the manner in which something is expressed in words; "use concise military verbiage"- G.S.Patton [syn: wording]

He definitely did NOT have an overabundance of words, nor use a technical mannerism with said words. But his words were garbage.

**Genghis Bob** · Posted On: 9/05/2007 10:40am

Originally Posted by Necroth

Nope, I meant what I typed...He definitely did NOT have an overabundance of words, nor use a technical mannerism with said words. But his words were garbage.

D'0h! Point taken.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 9/05/2007 3:46pm

Yay!!! Semantic Warz!!!

*** lift legs and pops a beer open ***

**new2bjj** · Posted On: 9/05/2007 3:59pm

There are so many guys out there trying to get into this sport, they don't need to give people a break for the ones that might **** it up. That's all this sport needs is some guy getting brain damage for a little **** talking that goes with the game. His crime wasn't for holding the choke for too long, it was for gleefully stating that he wanted to. Rio, hell, the world is full of guys that can fight, I'm sure they can find a replacement.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 9/05/2007 4:03pm

And now, moving up in weight to 205.....CHRISSSS "THE CRIPPLER" LEEEBBBEEENNNN!

**Yamabushi** · Posted On: 9/05/2007 6:04pm

Originally Posted by meataxe

OK, anatomy experts, MD's, Judo researcher and choking aficionados--please answer a question for me:

I'll assume the bit about plaque in the arteries contributing to a choke-induced Embolism is true. Is it possible that a) a sufficiently strong carotid choke hold that is held to unconsciousness is any worse than b) a sufficiently strong carotid choke hold that is held to only long enough to get a submission?

*by "sufficiently strong", I mean strong enough to work. Same strength for either (a) or (b).

There are two variables, pressure and duration. Which one (or both) is the dangerous factor?

Therein, I suggest, lies the secret to unraveling our little tempest here. Then, if we find that (a) is actually more likely to cause death than (b), we can then move on to the discussion as to whether the relative risk imposed by (a) is sufficient to get one's knickers in a knot.

DISCLAIMER: I am neither an anatomy expert, MD, Judo researcher nor choking aficionado. And I'm not wearing knickers.

The closest analogy we've got from medicine is the use of carotid sinus massage (CSM). The procedure involves rubbing the carotid artery for 5 to 10 seconds in order to induce a change in heart rate or blood pressure. It can be used either to diagnose problems with carotid blood flow (sometimes repsonsible for sudden falls and fainting) or to treat some types of cardiac rhythm problems.

CSM definitely has complications but they are rare - estimates range between 0.17% and 1.0% of those treated. Typically the type of problems CSM induces are strokes with some cardiac problems and are transient with most people making a full recovery. The mechanism for stroke is the disruption of plaque on the artery wall and for cardiac arrythmias stimulation of the vagal response. Given that the population who receive CSM are typically older (late 70's is average) and not in the best of health the risks for younger people who are in good health are probably lower (this article describes one study looking at complications).

The interesting thing about CSM is that one should not occlude the carotid artery when carrying it out. That suggests that pressure probably plays a more important role than duration but since the technique of CSM involves rubbing the artery the shearing force may be of greater importance than compression force.

Given that chokes are compression attacks that would suggest that they should have a lower risk than CSM. Anecdotally that seems to be the case as there appears to be nowhere near even a 0.17% incidence of stroke following choking in judo, BJJ or MMA. As an interesting aside if shearing is a factor in increased risk of complications from choking then a poorly applied choke where someone is able to move their neck while trying to resist would be more dangerous than a well applied one that is sunk in tightly. Given that all the choking fatalites that have occured have been as a result of their use by someone who was probably not terribly skilled against people who may have resisted extremely vigorously it could be argued that that is the case. On the other hand I could be talking bollocks.