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  1. Vince Tortelli is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:06pm

    supporting member
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dana should take a page out of the boxing playbook, start making "campaign contributions" to certain senators and that will be the end of all this "human cockfighting" crap.
  2. RegularJoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:08pm


     Style: Savate, Combatives(BJJ)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli
    Dana should take a page out of the boxing playbook, start making "campaign contributions" to certain senators and that will be the end of all this "human cockfighting" crap.

    :20bux: solves everything
  3. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreed, John McCain, Mr. "MMA is like gladiator but without Russell Crowe" himself, was PERSONALLY in attendence at a boxing match where a guy died in the ring. Yet, this bastion of virtue made no attempt to go after boxing for being "human cockfighting". Double standard anyone?
  4. RegularJoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:23pm


     Style: Savate, Combatives(BJJ)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli
    Agreed, John McCain, Mr. "MMA is like gladiator but without Russell Crowe" himself, was PERSONALLY in attendence at a boxing match where a guy died in the ring. Yet, this bastion of virtue made no attempt to go after boxing for being "human cockfighting". Double standard anyone?
    Morality cop :wbossman


    Maybe I should stop using smileys in every post...




    Anyway, I think Mccain was playing to the right wing crowd of decency-enforcers, unaware that a good number of the people that train in MAs are republican and do it for the same reason that they support the right to bear arms, to protect themselves against an aggressor.
    He's messing with his party's own supporters.
  5. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:29pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Money talks in politics, especially U.S. politics if you'll forgive me for saying. And there are some very wealthy 'interested parties' in boxing that stand to lose a lot of fucking money.
  6. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:32pm


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleidea
    I'm curious. Where did I state that death would or could be isntantaneous? I've looked over what I have written and found nothing where I said death would be instantaneous.
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleidea
    This is a reasonable explanation due to the blood. But, I still think he did it on purpose and should be punished. Banning him is a little overboard, but he could have seriously injured Heath. There is a thin line between unconciousness and death.
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy
    Apparently, even with trained medical staff on-hand, you felt that the line between being choked out and being choked to death was a thin one; to the extent that 3 or so seconds of holding the choke past the referee's signal to stop, those seconds taken to render Heath unconscious, "could have seriously injured Heath."

    "I never said choke=instant death." No, perhaps you didn't outright state it. Instead, you grossly overstated the dangers of choking in regards to the time frame necessary to seriously injure or kill someone.
    The above is where everything started. I think I've pointed that out three times now. When I originally pointed out the absurdity of the bolded statement, you asked for qualifications, posted links to sources that did not establish any sort of "thin line," and ignored that the interval of minutes between the onset of unconsciousnes from asphyxation and death by the same is several minutes. I think at some point you mentioned the occurence of bradycardia from carotid chokes, which as far as I've read is an assumed mechanism whose truth is debatable.

    The bit about embolism is plausible, but you've still yet to prove any sort of time frame that differentiates a thin line (the short progression from unconsciousness to death) from the possible no-line of a death by embolism (in which it occurs without a specific time frame, dependent on the victim's CV health and the nature of the choke.) We're still waiting for you to prove any flavor of the former, and the latter kills your point entirely because it relegates it to something that may or may not happen to someone predisposed (comprable to an aneurysm) when certain situations occur. Of course, it all comes back to the "thin line between unconsciousness and death." If the embolism is dependent on pressure to the carotid to dislodge embolous, then unconsciousness is not necessarily required to get that process started, just suitable pressure. What this means, of course, is that this also has nothing to do with your "thin line between unconsciousness and death," what is, again, what started this entire exchange.

    You may have a BS in Biology with focuses in cardio--whatever. My schooling is in the much less useful realm of English Literature and Creative Writing, but in the process of attaining that many-thousand dollar piece of paper, we Arts students learn a great deal about this thing called the English language. I won't say that we perfect the use of the English language (this is my sloppy forum writing, bound to have grammatical and spelling errors) but we do learn about things like cliches. For example, "a thin line between X and Y" is a cliche, one that you've misused, been called on, tried to defend unsuccessfully, tried to divert the discussion away from unsuccessfully, and now returned to. I hope this answers your question. You might want to better phrase your statements next time; for someone of your credentials, it is irresponsible to assert that there is a "thin line between unconsciousness and death" in regards to choke hold, especially when you cannot then establish said thin line.
  7. juszczec is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:35pm


     Style: karate and jujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bornsceptic
    So he's gone for refusing to acknowledge the tap it seems. Certainly warranted some kind of penalty but ending his career? Not sure. Pretty low thing to do, no matter how bad you hate the guy but maybe just cutting his purse was enough. Brazilian ego FTL.
    I agree with this. As a matter of fact, I have no problem with it.

    Someone called Sobral a name and he deliberately disregarded the safety rules and held onto the choke when the other guy gave up. What went on at the weigh ins was wrong. But what Sobral did was MORE wrong.

    I'd support White's decision to punish him however he wanted. It is, after all, the organization White is in charge of - therefore he makes the rules.

    And I agree MMA does not need the bad publicity of a death in the ring ESPECIALLY one like this.
  8. juszczec is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:38pm


     Style: karate and jujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    McCain is a politician. IMNSHO, this means most (if not all) of his actions are geared towards getting him re-elected to the gravy train of public "service"
  9. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damnit, I'm sick of all this "MMA" doesn't need the bad publicity. You know the stats on deaths in boxing? In football? Hell in this part of the country every year some high school or college kid drops dead during football practice during the summer, but no grandstanding politician stands in front of a camera and says we have to ban football.
    What's all this good publicity brought MMA anyway? Crowds of retards who say "Boo, boo, punch each other!" during a Royce Gracie-Kazushi Sakuraba fight? Vale Tudo FTW!
  10. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 2:51pm


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's all about perception, Vince. When a boxer or a football player dies, it is the untimely and unfortunate demise of an athlete. If a MMA'er were to die in the ring, it would be considered a natural result of "human gladiatorial combat" and only a matter of time. It's bullshit but, when it comes to opinion and knee-jerk legislation, fact holds less weight than illusion.

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