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  1. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2007 12:14pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Collins
    How can boxing be boxing if it doesn't have a clearly traced lineage to Roman or Egyptan boxing styles? Like the millions who haven't seen and varified the "ancient ninja scrolls" of Hatsumi's I took it in bad faith. If an American pulls some stuff out his butt and calls it combatives without a clear historically defined lineage then does that mean he isn't combative? No...

    If a Japanese man, or infact several develop a combatives style based on stealth, distraction and jujitsu is any less of a "stealth art" or exclude him from using a term native to his language? Again, No... SO even if the art is say 30 to 40 years old, it's still ninjitsu.

    My understanding of the art is this, Omoto Ryu Ninjitsu is derived from older methods of criminals and Ashigaru (Footmen); who were often commoners conscripted into war and given little to no training. So there lowly commoner developed something on there own. Either way its saved my bacon in the street, in jail and in the military.

    TO be honest with you, I could care less if it was invented by homeless drunk who thought he was Jesus Christ, so long as it works... I was told it was ninjitsu and I just go with it...
    Actually MODERN boxing does have a lineage and traces back to the efforts of James Figg in London in the mid-1700s. He was the first of the recognized English heavyweight champions and a discussion of his teachings can be found in "Championship Streetfighting: Boxing as a Maritial Art" by Ned Beaumont. There is also a list of champions from that date forward though admittedly under several sets of rules.

    When you say Ninjitsu it is referring to an art that existed in the Japanese Feudal period so to use the same name today is downright misleading unless you can show that the art you practice is a decendant of the art that was practiced at this time. Or to put it another way, everyone else practicing Ninjitsu claims such a historic link so unless you walk around with a sign saying "Non Historic Ninjitsu" people will make the same assumption about what you teach. Complaints may be filed with Steven Hayes.

    Finally learning from a Japanese person is not sufficient to establish that an art is genuinely historical. By the same token I could teach flintlock and wheel lock firing and claim that my art came from John Smith at Jamestown since my ancestors were were there at approximately the same time.
  2. Ron Collins is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2007 1:42pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Streetfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    When you say Ninjitsu it is referring to an art that existed in the Japanese Feudal period so to use the same name today is downright misleading unless you can show that the art you practice is a decendant of the art that was practiced at this time. Or to put it another way, everyone else practicing Ninjitsu claims such a historic link so unless you walk around with a sign saying "Non Historic Ninjitsu" people will make the same assumption about what you teach. Complaints may be filed with Steven Hayes.

    Finally learning from a Japanese person is not sufficient to establish that an art is genuinely historical. By the same token I could teach flintlock and wheel lock firing and claim that my art came from John Smith at Jamestown since my ancestors were were there at approximately the same time.
    Sam,

    I never claimed my art or the art I learned were used in fuedal Japan. There are several boxing schools that are derived from Gypsy Bare Knuckle Boxing contests in Ireland and American variations there of. I point this out, that not all boxing can come from one source, because not all MAs can come from a single source. Whether you call it jujitsu, aiki-jitsu, aikijujitsu, kenpo-jutsu or ninjutsu the core principles are the same.

    I openly address the idea of it being non-historic as you said. I make no claims to a history outside of the Omoto and Marin families. As I said earilier I took the concept that I was learning real ninjitsu in "Bad Faith;" meaning with a grain of salt. I can understand a possibility of what I was taught being "fake."
    But, I will also point out that the term ninja/shinobi was colorfully use/abused by the Japanese to set the pop culture image of the ninja being ruthless-assassin-supervillian types long before the name came to America in the 80s. I also remember an interview with Hatsumi were he said that was an issue in the openness of his "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu" system. It was also an issue for Fujita, I believe as well.

    I also point out that if a person where to invent his own style of "Jujutsu" in Japan, and it proved effective. No one would care about it having the name "jujitsu," likewise I fail to see how a person inventing or say teaching a system of stealth based combatives and calling it "ninjutsu" would be any different, muchless his children and grand children teaching the same system and calling it "ninjutsu."

    Again, as I have already said it was expalined to be drawn from methods used by criminals and in some aspects, ashigaru. Allow me to be more indepth on this (I believe that where we are going with this anyway...).

    As Sensei Omoto expalined it, Samurai were given lands to manage and protect. Thay had regular soldiers and they had conscripted citizens in times of war (which was often). The samurai taught their regular soldiers very little of their arts basic jujutsu, yarijutsu, tantojutsu and archery if at all. Most regular soldiers didn't read or write to little was recorded from their prospective. When villages were razed from wars some farmers and such who were displaced became bandits and such to survive. And, all of families had learned enough about warfare to pass this information on verbally. Those who became criminals and practice ambush tactics with anysort of skill were labelled "ninja" to increase the fear of them, they same way we use the word "terrorist" and "terrorism" for almost any crime of violence today.
    Almost any family in Japan can trace his/her family to an ashigarusha, and the samurai. Which was one of propaganda principles of the modern Japanese Empire in WW2 holding all citizens to follow Bushido. The methods are well say, 30 to 60 years old at least and maybe older. Ninjutsu is only largely connected with history where, the idea of "ancient ninja secrets" and "collecting" are concerned. I can call it "Grill Cheese in Black BJ Fu" and it be just as effective...
  3. Tsuba5 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 10:25am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    Are you claiming its a family martial art with no verifiable lineage?
    Plasma - just for history's sake. Most of the Okinawan karate (nothing to do with the ninjitsu discussion here) - was village karate. It was taught in secret and they didn't keep lineages. It was not until sometime in the late 1800's that it became "acceptable" to bring it into the light.

    I'm sure that there are lots of Ryu out there for sword fighting that when the Meiji restoration took place, sword fighting fell out of favor and only a few sword schools survived. The rest of them sort of got lost.

    I'm glad that you're asking the questions to keep people honest. Just be aware that there are some lost lineages out there. Although your quote about "gaijin" was a little bit on the racist side - it does have some validity.

    Anata wa nihongo wo doko de naraimashita ka?
  4. Feryk is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 12:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Collins
    OK yes I'm that bored. I'm here for no other reason then to waste time.

    First, I'm duh Ron Collins. The same Ron Collins who wrote and published Black Dragon Ninjitsu for Dojo Press. I can't speak for Ashida Kim nor answer any questions about him. I am going to clear up some stuff on me and my art...My attraction to ninjitsu in the first place was the "guerrilla warfare" and small teams aspect. In a more practical sense as Sensei Martin explained it to me "Ninjitsu is the art of sneaking up and slitting some poor SOBs throat. Thus, keep it simple."
    Both Sensei Omoto and Marin; "updated" thier knowledge and incorperationed skills not common to ancient Japan. So I in truth hardly consider what I do as "Authentically Japanese" unless someone wants to tell the koryu styles used assault rifles? I used the term ninjitsu simply because the art I practice is "ninjitsu derived."

    Any Questions?
    You can tell me to piss off for asking this question, but I'm going to ask anyways: If your form of 'Ninjitsu' is so practical and useful, the WHY would you associate yourself with something like Black Dragon Ninjitsu?
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  5. kwoww is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 12:35pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    You can tell me to piss off for asking this question, but I'm going to ask anyways: If your form of 'Ninjitsu' is so practical and useful, the WHY would you associate yourself with something like Black Dragon Ninjitsu?
    I'm just confused because I thought Ashida Kim himself wrote all the Dojo Press books.
  6. Ron Collins is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 3:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Streetfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    You can tell me to piss off for asking this question, but I'm going to ask anyways: If your form of 'Ninjitsu' is so practical and useful, the WHY would you associate yourself with something like Black Dragon Ninjitsu?
    OK Piss off ;) No I'll answer that. But only so far into MY associations with Black Dragon Ninjitsu & Ashida Kim. I have an honorary rank in BDN, for the purposes of the publication. Dispite what allot of poeple think most schools with AK's organization not only teach different styles and systems but have not hard set training program. So you may have one instructor focused on the chi-kung type stuff and another (me) who is hardset on a combative frame of mind.

    Sensei Omoto just kinda threw me out there, and with all the Koga-Ryu politics I just settled with AK whom has allot of books that reflect a similar mindset. Plus I tried training in the Bujinkan, twice, it doesn't appeal to me.
  7. kwoww is offline
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    poser

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 3:58pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Collins
    OK Piss off ;) No I'll answer that. But only so far into MY associations with Black Dragon Ninjitsu & Ashida Kim. I have an honorary rank in BDN, for the purposes of the publication. Dispite what allot of poeple think most schools with AK's organization not only teach different styles and systems but have not hard set training program. So you may have one instructor focused on the chi-kung type stuff and another (me) who is hardset on a combative frame of mind.

    Sensei Omoto just kinda threw me out there, and with all the Koga-Ryu politics I just settled with AK whom has allot of books that reflect a similar mindset. Plus I tried training in the Bujinkan, twice, it doesn't appeal to me.
    Have you read the Bullshido investigation into Ashida Kim?
  8. Ron Collins is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 4:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Streetfighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No... But, I also said I wasn't going to discuss him either.
  9. Neildo is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 4:02pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  10. Ron Collins is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 4:10pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Streetfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, he lives in Canada his father moved there after WW2. But, allot of his family stayed in Japan. His uncle, Sensei Martin's father-in-law is still there.
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