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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2007 8:22pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    FMA should be all of this all the time. You should not be just learning stick. The stick is only a stand in for some other sharper or more dangerous weapon.
    Not necesarily. The pre-Spanish systems use this methodology, but some more recent systems train the stick as just a stick. For instance, in some newer styles you might block a stick, then grab it, then strike their wrist or hand with your stick- now you have two sticks. You won't see this in systems where the stick is a training bolo, because you'd be grabbing a blade. I think sometimes a stick should be treated as what it is- an impact weapon. You say above "a stand in for a sharper or more dangerous weapon". Sometimes the more dangerous weapon is still a stick, but instead of a light rattan stick its a heavy hard stick like ash or kamagong, or a war club carved to deliver force along a small surface area, not necessarily a blade.
  2. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2007 10:06pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    FMA should be all of this all the time. You should not be just learning stick. The stick is only a stand in for some other sharper or more dangerous weapon.
    I disagree, a stick can be a stand in for a blade or a stick can be any blunt instrument you find that can serve as a weapon. It can be a tire iron, a heavy duty flashlight, a cane, a blackjack et al. If Iím getting into my car and some jackass approaches me with a knife you can bet your ass my D-cell Maglite is coming into play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    . So if your FMA is not translating into other weapons then "stick" you should ask whatís going on.
    Good point, but to put MY post into a better context so as not to misconstrue the meaning, I basically stop training with knives or sticks as edged weapons at minimum six weeks prior to fighting in a full contact event. Why? Well, basically the stick is a stick and the other fighters are intent on taking your head off with said stick. Here, the tactics are slightly different as there is no concern for grabbing the blade etc. and I need to train to be prepared for power strikes that may not be necessary if the opposing weapon has a point. Hence the reason I said when I go back to training with knives after prolonged stick use I find for the first couple minutes my techniques are exaggerated and large.
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  3. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2007 10:08pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    Not necesarily. The pre-Spanish systems use this methodology, but some more recent systems train the stick as just a stick....
    I guess I could have just read your post before I posted mine.
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  4. ignatzami is offline
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    l Travel To Get Choked!

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2007 9:18am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aright boys and girls, bullshit check time.

    Northeastern Martial Arts Institute

    http://nemadojo.com/

    Pekiti-Tirsia under Guro Jack Latorre. Bio available under "Other Contacts"

    http://www.pekiti.com/contactlist.php#us

    Cons:

    Google just comes up with NEMA, the PT website and some seminar dates. No other notable hits. NEMA itself looks like the standard issue McDojo. Lots of classes, no sparring (check out the "QDT" art for some standard issue no-sparring learn to defend yourself quick crap) and a hideous website.

    Pros:

    Close to school

    Unknowns:
    -Cost
    -Quality of instruction
    -Classroom tempo

    I'm going to try and get over for a class next Tuesday or Saturday. If anyone sees any red flags on this place, or specifically the instructor let me know.
  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2007 1:01am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis
    I guess I could have just read your post before I posted mine.
    Nah, its always good to have the full contact perspective, which is something of a rarity for me.
  6. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2007 5:11am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    Not necesarily. .......
    You say above "a stand in for a sharper or more dangerous weapon". Sometimes the more dangerous weapon is still a stick, but instead of a light rattan stick its a heavy hard stick like ash or kamagong, or a war club carved to deliver force along a small surface area, not necessarily a blade.
    Yes, I agree that modern FMA my have devolved into purely stick or even Sport stick in armour. I respect the effort first and the desire to continue a line of teaching. Much respect, alot of it s still good stuff.

    I even added the "more dangerous" line in proof reading and I am glad you highlited it. THe stick done softer must be to improve skills for hard stick hits and blunt force. This is the first level of transitio with this concept, then an imagenary edge, then the butt, the hilt, stabes, slices, ect...all with stick and good with it too.

    What I get from Dreager's and Whiley's books plus what I have been taught by Rene Latosa, the Islands fostered many weapons in a wide arrangement of styles. Dreagers book has photos of multi-tipped wooden daggers and spiked shields on the polynessean natives, every culture from the Hindus to the CHinese and Islamics colonized there, etc.. it is an amalgamation. Dos Paires in modern times is a consolidation of 12 styles. FMA is a system of making anything a weapon, and of maximizing the aspects of whatever type weapon you have on hand or take from someone. It is about assimilation.

    THe minute you start thinking you can do only a single weapon, especially a blunt stick, you stop being FMA, IMHO. But you do have to start with something, so a single weapon is often a beginning. Its just my opinion, not challange anything on the "real" FMA....


    A table leg can always be broken off to make a simple club, as you mentioned. It can be very dangerous. Most every culture in the world has some sort of single stick Martial Art, what has made FMA unique or different? I feel that this concept of assimilation of MA's, is a cultural heiritege to the islands due to so many peoples seeking refuge there over the centurys.

    so to the origional poster, find a FMA knife teacher or atleast known to teach knife and find out if your stick "start up" translates.

    more: OK, so if you have a staff and it breaks you have two sticks, and these may shatter to have sharp points or even edges. You may end up with short shunts made of splinters for stabbing or with empty hands. You may take ther weapon. Armour and metals may change the effects of targets and strikes. The ranges or lengths may change mid strike, you must adapt to this change. You can not just learn any one part, you must start with one part in a way that developes the all others. You must develop this base. Then you can specialize. FMA is not the only system based on this priniciple.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  7. Frank White is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2007 5:30am


     Style: chinese boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    ... Dos Paires in modern times is a consolidation of 12 styles. .
    Sorry, Doce Pares means 12 pairs, Dos I believe means 2. I also believe they teach Doce Pares in Syracuse, it includes stick, knife, bullwhip, and other aspects of FMA.
  8. Naszir is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2007 12:15pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo, SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DTT, I have to say that I utterly disagree with your idea of devolution of FMA on the whole in modern contexts. The focus on the stick in and of itself as a useful weapon is highly beneficial as a part of a program. There are several techniques that in a stick context, be it rattan or a flatstick, are far less useful than say, a barong. Also, I have faced more impact weapons than knives so I probably show a bit of bias.

    Also, blade work is not what makes FMA, FMA. The approach is what makes it FMA (well that and the fact that it is from the PI). I may be misunderstanding your point here. But those of us who train with the stick to be effective as an impact weapon don't train it to exclusion. The angles are the same, the footwork is the same, it just needs to be a bit different than blade work. It is still kali, escrima, arnis. Same as if I am practicing dumog or empty hands.
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 3:58am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Doce, my bad. the 12 pairs are based on 12 family styles.

    Naszir, a person may think they have only learned stick in FMA, but then discover they have learned alot more. That is my point. Just as JKD became a style and just as MMA is becoming a style, we must strive to prevent FMA from becoming just a collection of specialized weapons sets. It should be more. I cringe when I see padding and blunt stick sparring devolving the art. Same way i cringe when i see it in every other MA.



    Transition.

    Maybe I have a bias since that is the way Rene has taught it, as only 5 concepts that must be applied to everything.

    Rene starts this one with butterfly knife play. These motions translate also to empty hand or long blade. Then you see him do stick work and even focus mitt. It all synergizes. The more weapons and tools you have to work the same concepts, the broader the understanding, which makes you then able to be more specialized.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unMAW53R0S8
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 8/31/2007 4:10am at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  10. Naszir is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 7:20am


     Style: BJJ, Judo, SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Like I said, DTT, the angles are the same, the footwork is the same. But training a stick as an impact weapon is like practicing short blade. It works almost the same but you do have to make adjustments for range, so you tighten up and close a bit. With the impact, you have to be sure to get good hip rotation and as much power as you can generate. We are not talking about training stick to the exclusion of other weapons, merely training the stick so that if you get into a fight with a stick, because, for instance, you don't want to go to prison for agg assault or attempted murder, you can defend yourself effectively.

    It isn't a devolution of it. Anyone who feels like systems such as DBMA or LaCoste or any others teaching stick as stick is diluting FMA should stick spar and see what is more effective. Florettas don't do much with rattan neither do witicks. Just like wisliks aren't real effective with your elbows. There are certain techniques that work better with certain weapons. You certainly don't say "Don't use the pakal grip as it dilutes true fma. FMA is blade up!". Of course not, as it would be ridiculous. This dismissal of stick work as an impact weapon seems a bit silly as well.
    Last edited by Naszir; 8/31/2007 7:23am at .
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