8/24/2007 12:51am, #1
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- South Korea
ATTN: Veteran Posters - Help Me Out
Attention, all you veteran posters! All you who are so tired of the same arguments! So tired of giving the same responses over and over again! Hear me!....
...and give those responses again.
I'm hoping that some of the veteran posters on here can help me out with discussing martial arts with a friend of mine. I work with a guy who is into and trains in various styles of martial arts, though right now I don't know any specifics. I'm hoping to awaken him, but I know there are people on these forums who can do that a lot more quickly and efficiently than I can. He has never heard of Bullshido before, as far as I know.
So here's what I'm going to do: I'm going to post this, and tomorrow at work I'm going to direct him to this site and thread, have him register (if he wants to), and start posting here (beginning with an introduction - yes, I know those are supposed to go in Newbietown). Once he registers and posts an introduction, I'll let him espouse a few beliefs, and let the debate rage on. I'll be very upfront about my goal: I'm hoping that some of you will be able to present these good arguments better than I can.
As a caveat, this debate WILL be the same thing you've all seen before. Among the things that I garnered from our debate earlier are that he believes the eye gouge to be an effective street-defense technique, he practices knife defenses, he really likes Bruce Lee, he agrees that size is an advantage but says that it is only a "circumstantial" advantage (meaning that there are circumstances in which size is actually a disadvantage), and I'm pretty sure he trains or has trained in Dim Mak. I'm not saying anything about these things, I'm just trying to give you all an idea of what the discussion will be like before it starts. If I'm wrong about any of these things, I'm sure he will correct me, and I'll apologize for being mistaken.
So, if a Mod doesn't like this or something, then that's cool, whatever. I know search function noob and all that, but he will be brand new to the site, and I thought this might be a way to initiate him and let some of the bored vets get a good debate in.
Thanks in advance!
8/24/2007 12:59am, #2
8/24/2007 1:15am, #3
Wow, you're actually lining up fresh meat to the grinder. Omega will be pleased.......
Originally Posted by ggboxer
8/24/2007 2:12am, #4
This isn't going to end well.Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
...Willing is not enough you must do ~Bruce Lee
8/24/2007 2:19am, #5
Anyway, sub-debates that I will try to nip in the bud.
- Street vs Sport
- Alive vs Dead training
- Use of dirty tactics
These articles will hopefully clear a lot of them up
Training to Fight / The Myth of Self Defense
By Luis Gutierrez
The debate about training for the street and training for sport never seems to end. I decided to make an individual link to handle this question since it so commonly arises and to prevent any misunderstandings about my intentions when it comes to ODMA, it's active philosophy or curriculum. The following is my opinion and simply that. Please feel free to contact me if you have anything to add but I hope my point has been made clear by the time you finish reading this page. I don't see what all the fuss is about but here goes…
My definition of what is combative sport and what is fighting is as follows: If both parties agree to fight under specific rules and regulations within a specific time frame, then it's a combative sport. If any one party does not wish to participate and / or is forced to at any given time or place, then it's a fight. The primary difference is what is being fought for and the reason why. One is a job or a sport for money, honor, or prestige, and the other is sheer survival for life, well being and / or liberty. One entails specific rules of engagement; the other's only rule is no rules.
How this influences me and my role running ODMA is as follows: I train for many reasons. Self-defense is not one of them but simply a by product of them all. I believe that one on one hand to hand "fights" of honor only occur in the ring. I am not concerned with what worked in Feudal Japan nor what was honor once upon a time in a more "innocent" America. In my life, I have yet to ever see, read of, or hear of someone being attacked or robbed honorably. (Granted, I have seen a great deal of theft in boxing.) I am 34 years old with a loving family, rent, bills, debts and every working American's dreams to succeed. Responsibility, more so than any martial art could ever dream of, has readily allowed me to walk away from challenges to my ego. Now, do you actually think for a moment that a threat (not a challenge) to me or my loved ones would have anything to do whether or not I trained martial arts?! The will to action at that moment would have nothing to do with any confidence or techniques acquired through the martial arts. None! If I were alone and attacked I would rely on my track and field ability. If I'm with loved ones… the pain tolerance, endurance, power and ferocity given by God at that moment is a force of nature and has nothing to do with civilization's fighting arts. My training? Against being outnumbered or dealing with a weapon? No style will save you, only your wits. It has much more to do with your psychology and your will to survive and protect life than any manufactured technique or style designed supposedly to end it.
The myth of street fighting: They seldom ever occur on a street. Try instead, bars, clubs and places serving alcohol and selling a whole lot of mood and attitude. These ego-based displays of physical prowess usually occur around locations where single people go in numbers to socialize. Obviously mix sex and drugs together with a large number of single people and those not getting any of the first and too much of the second will be very frustrated. When you visit an establishment where the ultimate goal of most intoxicated patrons by midnight is to fight or fornicate, your chances of feeling the fight or flight response, a boot or bottle to the head, and even getting arrested is a good one. I practically lived and worked in clubs from age 17 through 28. Avoid them and you avoid 99% of the so called street fights.
The reality of assaults: Real fights are actually assaults. They can and do occur everywhere and at any time. In fact, unlike the scenarios above, statistically most assaults occur near or at your home. There are no stances, deflections, blocks or parries against strikes that come in the form of multiple led projectiles. Knife fights are called assassinations in the real world. The only knife ever involved is the one "suddenly" inside you. Movies would have it that every criminal places a gun at your stomach before making a long drawn out sales pitch or presents and twirls a knife in front of you before lunging in like an Olympic fencer. This is not the case at all. Criminals are scared too and seldom get close until they know you are secured, this at times means shot or dead. The knife is felt and not seen as it often comes from a blind side or from someone other than you are dealing with. Muggers and rapists use stun guns and pepper sprays as well as the ladies they attack. Assaults are predatory by nature and if they do not involve weapons, involve larger numbers, or at the least a much larger or stronger assailant than victim. Against these odds once they occur, no hand to hand martial art stands much of a chance and survival is more in the realm of psychological tactics, luck, and your ability gage the best moment to escape.
The grappling arts imply: "most fights end up on the ground…take them there"
The striking arts imply: "all fights start standing up…keep them there"
The mixed martial arts imply: "any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere" Coast to Coast Crime Statistics state: 10 out of 10 assaults involve a weapon(s), being outnumbered, being physically outclassed or any combination of the above.
Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around.
"Be like water…then just add dirt."Tired Debate
by Matt Thornton
Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website
Subject: tired debate
I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.
Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).
You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.
Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.
Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco.
My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.
In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.
Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain that's involved in earning that strong base.
continued. . . . .
I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.
In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think that's fine. But that's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.
Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand.
A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.
Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They are part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cuting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.
This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them.Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
...Willing is not enough you must do ~Bruce Lee
8/24/2007 3:43pm, #6
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- South Korea
Well, it looks like my friend won't be joining Bullshido today. He knows about it and has had plenty of time to hop in, but I guess he has decided not to. Maybe he will on Monday, but I'm not sure if he's interested. Hopefully he is, and hopefully he decides to come play. Sorry for jumping the gun.
If he doesn't end up wanting to come here, then I will end up using this thread as a vehicle for some of the things that we talk about at work, so that I can see all of those arguments presented in one place (this thread) concisely.
One of the things that was brought up yesterday was that training for MMA competitions is not as effective for self-defense as training specifically for teh street. An example that was given was being punched in the back of the head. In the UFC, the fighters don't have to worry about that, but on teh street, they do. In my opinion, you can't really train really d34dly techniques like that, because you can't ever actually DO them since you don't want to kill your opponent. Since you never actually do them, only pretend, it doesn't make you any better at actually doing them than someone who doesn't train them, and consequently has also never done them. Also, someone said that UFC fighters would react how they train, which is namely not defending themselves against strikes to the back of the head - and so, not training it puts them at a disadvantage against someone who isn't working underneath ingrained rules.
I read those two articles just now, KempoFist, and they're good. I've got a question about Escrima. Has anyone ever seen a highly trained Escrimador fight with a knife against a resisting opponent? I haven't, and though I'm not a morbid guy, I would like to see what happens. Anyone have any anecdotes?
Last edited by Tangent; 8/24/2007 3:48pm at .
8/24/2007 3:53pm, #7
Originally Posted by Tangent"Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
8/24/2007 5:36pm, #8
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Staten Island, NYC
Dude, you are attempting to have a serious discussion on Bullshido - your first and fatal mistake. It is not your job to change your friend to "the light side", since he will turn what he knows into crap if you force anything on him anyway. Discuss the concepts, ideals and facts about "alive training" and if he does as much MA as you say he does, he will understand and agree, and if he is a LARPER then he will just be one until someone kicks his ass.
8/24/2007 7:07pm, #9
8/24/2007 7:21pm, #10
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- South Korea
Nah, its not like that. I'm not specifically trying to change his mind, I'm just trying to introduce him to a venue where he can talk about a lot of the stuff that he thinks, and not be coddled like they'll do to him on MAP.
I'm... sorry, Omega. I'm... so sorry....