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  1. Shu2jack is offline

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    Jun 2004
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 4:41pm


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Pivoting

    I was reading USA Today (shut up, I was at work and bored) and in the sports section they had an article about Nia Abdallah. With the article was a photo of her executing a round kick. (I believe, I don't have the article & photo with me) The one thing I noticed right away was that there was not much of a pivot on her base leg. I figured I would come to the knowledgeable people of bullshido to have my questions answered.

    I have been taught that for most kicks, and the round kick in question, that the toes of the base leg would ideally be pointed away from your target. The prevents the fucking up of your knee, allows you to put your hips into the kick more (more power), and is just generally good form.

    I'm wondering if Olympic fighters choose to pivot as little as possible in an attempt to eliminate "extra" movement in their kicking. I grew up on the "full" chamber, rather than the idea of using the same chamber for just about every kick. Is pivoting less of an issue for WTF TKD style kicks? Is kicking her way an example of a good way to have bad knees years down the road, an example of athletes using methods that give them an immediate advantage while screwing them over in the future? Could it just be a bad kick she threw and they decided to use the photo? Could the pivot she uses just not be that big of a deal?

    Thoughts?
  2. Chizilds is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 4:43pm


     Style: BJJ - SBGi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I pivot on almost ALL of my kicks.... I don't see how you wouldn't unless its forced. you get more action in your hip by pivoting anyway?
  3. kwoww is offline
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    Lower Hudson Valley / Rochester
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 4:48pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only reason not to pivot is when speed becomes more important than power, or when you're stupidly flexible. Both are usually the case for WTF TKD.
  4. Chizilds is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 4:51pm


     Style: BJJ - SBGi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    its not really a flexibility thing though... its just body mechanics... if you DONT pivot... you are going to put way more stress on that plant leg.
  5. ToUnderstand is offline

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    Aug 2006
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    Jacksonville,Fl
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 8:05pm


     Style: TaeKwonDo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    The only reason not to pivot is when speed becomes more important than power, or when you're stupidly flexible. Both are usually the case for WTF TKD.
    Im stupidly flexible and i admit i do this some time especially when i kick with the lower shin.
  6. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 9:11pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have got to pivot that base leg. Trying to throw a kick with alot of power and speed over and over again will jack your knee up if you don't pivot.
  7. ToUnderstand is offline

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    177

    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 9:27pm


     Style: TaeKwonDo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i pivot a little really like not 180 degrees more like 90, is that ok?
  8. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 9:38pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    90 is the best that i found to use. Some may do more or less. Depending on your preference.
  9. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Oct 2003
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 7:59am

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The reason why WTF fighters don't pivot all the way is because they do the 45 degree version of the roundhouse kick. It does not come across horizontally but rather up at a 45 degree angle. Their hips do not make a full 180 degree rotation into the kick. The reason for this is speed of execution. Additionally, because they do not attempt for penetration of the roundhouse kick (with the shin pads and chest plate it damn near impossible to get good penetration) there is no need for the kind of extreme hip turning that the foot pivot facilitates. Therefore they have no need for the pivot foot to be turned the full 180.

    The reason why the 180 pivot is better for non-WTF fighting is because your hips make a full 180 and allow for greater torque generation and so more penetration with the striking surface. And penetration is what causes the damage.
  10. sheltrk is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 10:14am


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well said, Mav. This is a technique I have had some trouble with... At my school, I have been taught at least three different versions of the basic back leg roundhouse:
    1) Quarter roundhouse. Front leg pivots 45 degrees, back leg comes up and a across at a 45 degree angle. Quick but no power. It is excellent for scoring points in WTF sparring, and it is easy to recover from, but does no real damage, as all the power is generated from the "snap" as the kicking knee unchambers.
    2) Half roundhouse. Front leg pivots 90 degrees, back leg comes up and across somewhere between 45 degrees and horizontal. More power than the quarter round, but takes more time to recover, especially after a miss. It is often easier to just follow up with a back turning or side thrust kick, rather than to snap back to a guard position.
    3) Full roundhouse. Front leg pivots 180 degrees, rear leg comes around horizontal. A solid, driving, powerful kick. If you miss, recovery can take a while. The momentum can carry you all the way around, Muay Thai style, if you let it.

    I don't know that I necessarily think of these three kicks as three distinct kicks. I tend to think of them more as points in the "roundhouse power spectrum", but that's probably the physicist/electrical engineer in me. :icon_thum

    Some of the more flexible kids and one of the ladies can pull off the 45 degree kick without pivoting their front foot at all. I'm thinking this has got to put a strain on that front knee. Or else they simply have more bendy parts than I do... (It think some kids are actually made out of rubber.)

    My problem has been my failure to open up my hips enough to get to 45 degrees. My "quarter roundhouse" has had a tendency to go almost vertical--not a terribly useful kick in sparring. I've been working the hip flexor stretches, and it is helping a lot.
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