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  1. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 11:14pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Would you care to generalise from this work?
    I wouldn't generalize from the Pyecha study alone. But there is an aggregation of studies that I do draw from. These include:

    1. Husman, B.F. (1955) Aggression in Boxers and Wrestlers As Measured by Projective Techniques. Research Quarterly 26: 421-425. Husman finds that boxers were less aggressive than wrestlers, X-Country runners, and inactive controls. Also found that boxers were more inwardly aggressive than the others.

    2. Finkenberg, M.E. (1990) Effect of Participation in Tae kwon do on College Women's Self-Concept. Perceptual and Motor Skills 71: 891-894. Finkenberg found that women who began TKD had higher prosocial values on self-concept measures than those women in regular fitness classes.

    3. Gleser, J.M., Margulies, J.Y., Nyska, M., Porat, S. and Mendelberg, H. (1992) Physical and Psychosocial Benefits of Modified Judo Practice for Blind, Mentally Retarded Children: A Pilot Study. Perceptual and Motor Skill 74: 915-925. Gleser et al found that a modified curriculum of judo had far greater benefits to physical and psychological health than other methods tried beforehand, including sport-specific activities.


    These are studies which specifically looked at sports vs. MA, as opposed to studies that look at MA versus previous unsuccessful efforts in other areas.


    Can you give me an informed precis?
    I assume this means a summary of their study:

    Note that I don't wholly agree with the sentiments of this study, yet I respect that it's one of the most scientific studies completed on participation in modern martial arts in relation to antisocial tendencies.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...=pubmed_docsum
  2. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 11:18pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judah Maccabee
    I wouldn't generalize from the Pyecha study alone. But there is an aggregation of studies that I do draw from. These include:

    1. Husman, B.F. (1955) Aggression in Boxers and Wrestlers As Measured by Projective Techniques. Research Quarterly 26: 421-425. Husman finds that boxers were less aggressive than wrestlers, X-Country runners, and inactive controls. Also found that boxers were more inwardly aggressive than the others.

    2. Finkenberg, M.E. (1990) Effect of Participation in Tae kwon do on College Women's Self-Concept. Perceptual and Motor Skills 71: 891-894. Finkenberg found that women who began TKD had higher prosocial values on self-concept measures than those women in regular fitness classes.

    3. Gleser, J.M., Margulies, J.Y., Nyska, M., Porat, S. and Mendelberg, H. (1992) Physical and Psychosocial Benefits of Modified Judo Practice for Blind, Mentally Retarded Children: A Pilot Study. Perceptual and Motor Skill 74: 915-925. Gleser et al found that a modified curriculum of judo had far greater benefits to physical and psychological health than other methods tried beforehand, including sport-specific activities.

    These are studies which specifically looked at sports vs. MA, as opposed to studies that look at MA versus previous unsuccessful efforts in other areas.
    To what extent do the non-longitudinal comparative studies allow for the attractiveness of the pursuits in the first place? In other words, how do they rule out the possibility that TKD, for example, attracts students with prosocial traits, rather than promoting prosocial traits?

    I assume this means a summary of their study:

    Note that I don't wholly agree with the sentiments of this study, yet I respect that it's one of the most scientific studies completed on participation in modern martial arts in relation to antisocial tendencies.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...=pubmed_docsum
    Fascinating. What's the difference between those activities that enhanced the antisocial traits, and those that had minimal influence?
    Last edited by DAYoung; 8/22/2007 11:23pm at .
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  3. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 11:28pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJJ has made me an obnoxious, nerdy little **** who can get away with it because I know I won't get my ass kicked. In other words, i'm every social conservative's vision of a kid who didn't get spanked.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  4. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2007 11:30pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fascinating. What's the difference between those activities that enhance the antisocial traits, and those that had minimal influence?
    Well, first, the authors make a valid critique that most of the studies that say "MA training = better people" suffer from construct flaws, such as low sample size or cross-sectional design, which is far less effective than longitudinal design for establishing causation.

    Some choice excerpts:

    Our main hypothesis is that participation
    in one or more of these sports [boxing, weightlifting,
    wrestling, and oriental martial arts (karate,
    judo, and Tae Kwon Do)] over some time
    will have an enhancing effect on antisocial involvement,
    also in the presence of possible self-selection
    effects.
    Fighting elements
    are central in three of the examined sports, boxing,
    wrestling, and martial arts. Training in fight sports
    implies acquisition of aggressive behaviour repertoires,
    and according to social learning theory,
    combat experience may enhance both fighting skills
    and aggressive behaviour. Enactive learning and
    also exposure to aggressive role models during
    training may contribute to an enhancement of
    aggressive behaviours in the training situation as well as in other settings, due to generalisation
    (Bandura, 1973). Another possible influence noted
    by several authors (e.g., Nixon, 1997; Rees et al.,
    1990) is the effect of ‘macho’ athletic subcultures on
    violent and aggressive behaviour, and this aspect
    may be relevant both in training with weights and in
    fight sports
    The negative effects in boys seemed to stem from both the practice of
    power sports itself and from repeated contact with ‘macho’ attitudes, norms, and ideals.
    Possible mechanisms.

    The associations between
    the power sports on the one hand, and the Violence
    Scale on the other, may be understood in light of
    social learning principles. Boxing and wrestling in
    particular are rather violent sports, and combined
    effects of enactive learning, violent role models, and
    acceptance/reinforcement of violent and aggressive
    behaviour from coaches and peers (and maybe parents)
    may contribute to altered practice outside the
    sports settings also.

    As mentioned, some of our results indicate that
    also less specific learning processes very likely were
    operative. The relationship between weightlifting and
    violence was quite pronounced. The reason may be
    that this activity, with a focus on muscles and
    physical strength, and the other power sports activities
    are associated with subcultures where ‘macho’
    ideals and beliefs in the value of toughness (Nixon,
    1997) may be quite prevalent. Also, the consistent
    relationships between power sports and the index of
    non-violent antisocial behaviour underscore the
    influence of prevailing attitudes and ideals held in
    the training milieu on behaviours other than those
    acquired and directly practised in the training situation.
    It is beyond the scope of the present article to attempt
    detailed explanations of the mechanisms involved
    in the documented relationships. It should be
    noted, however, that a number of additional analyses
    have been performed in order to take possible
    confounding or nuisance variables into account.

    Overall, these analyses showed that the reported
    effects of power sport participation could not be explained
    as a consequence of alcohol or drug use,
    gang membership, or stage of pubertal development.
  5. Uri Shatil is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 12:15am


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to say, this is some great argument that I greatly enjoy reading. Keep up the good work.

    But I won't prevent myself from answering the original question in a self-involved way and ignoring the argument (I'll pitch in later). I wrestled in high school, I help coach a wrestling team, and I can tell you some of my observations.

    First of all, everyone on the wrestling team must learn, at some point, to trust the others, because of the nature of the sport. A great deal of trust is involved. You must trust the person you're wrestling that they won't hurt you. You must trust that if you accidentally hurt them, they truly forgive you. You must trust that they are actually trying and resisting with all their might, and not just letting you win; people in tournaments will never let you win.

    You learn humility. I know that in my experience wrestling, and now in BJJ, I've been beaten, and every time I'm beaten I'm reminded that not only am I not the best, but I am facing someone better than myself. That's real humility.

    You learn discipline. Lots of discipline. I know I did, anyway. Someone commanding you to do army crawls down and back four times, and making you run twenty sprints because you disobey the command, really shows you that you are not in command. Having to push as hard as you can in the last period, even though you've been wrestling for five and a half minutes, and you feel like you can't physically let out that sprawl because you're too tired but you do it anyway because you have to is discipline.

    But it's not all good. Aggression is a vice that I find too often in the wrestling team. Every goddamn time a fight breaks out at the highschool, I pray to myself that nobody on the team is involved. But even though only 5% of the boys in the highschool, and an even smaller number of the girls, are on the team, about 50% of the fights involve team members. The other 50% mostly involve weed and money. Every time the head coach has to talk to the team member, it kills him. You'd think that it would give them an outlet to channel their aggression. I know that when I was in highschool, I loved the fact that I actually got to use and test my skills. But for some reason, it increases the chances of fighting.

    I've thought about why. Is it because the nature of the sport increases aggression? I doubt it. THe only sensible conclusion I've been able to draw is that it gives you a sense of superiority if you are more skilled than your opponent. It takes away the fear that he'll beat you. Call it rashness. It's devastating. The school has talked of punishing the team every time a member gets in a fight. Cutting budget, forcing us to raise the tuition, and it's bad enough, since enough kids already are on partial scholarships that we might not have the funds to augment. I don't know what it is, but the skill to fight comes with the urge to fight, and some people get in unnecessary fights to satisfy that urge. It's tragic, really. It's a goddamn shame.
  6. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 12:55am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Steve's summary
    So it's primarily the social milieu of the arts that inclines the participants towards aggressive behaviour?
    Last edited by DAYoung; 8/23/2007 12:58am at .
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  7. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 1:02am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uri Shatil
    First of all, everyone on the wrestling team must learn, at some point, to trust the others, because of the nature of the sport. A great deal of trust is involved. You must trust the person you're wrestling that they won't hurt you. You must trust that if you accidentally hurt them, they truly forgive you. You must trust that they are actually trying and resisting with all their might, and not just letting you win; people in tournaments will never let you win.

    You learn humility. I know that in my experience wrestling, and now in BJJ, I've been beaten, and every time I'm beaten I'm reminded that not only am I not the best, but I am facing someone better than myself. That's real humility.

    You learn discipline. Lots of discipline. I know I did, anyway. Someone commanding you to do army crawls down and back four times, and making you run twenty sprints because you disobey the command, really shows you that you are not in command. Having to push as hard as you can in the last period, even though you've been wrestling for five and a half minutes, and you feel like you can't physically let out that sprawl because you're too tired but you do it anyway because you have to is discipline.
    To what extent do your virtues - discipline, humility, trust - continue off the mat?

    But it's not all good. Aggression is a vice that I find too often in the wrestling team. Every goddamn time a fight breaks out at the highschool, I pray to myself that nobody on the team is involved. But even though only 5% of the boys in the highschool, and an even smaller number of the girls, are on the team, about 50% of the fights involve team members. The other 50% mostly involve weed and money. Every time the head coach has to talk to the team member, it kills him. You'd think that it would give them an outlet to channel their aggression. I know that when I was in highschool, I loved the fact that I actually got to use and test my skills. But for some reason, it increases the chances of fighting.

    I've thought about why. Is it because the nature of the sport increases aggression? I doubt it. THe only sensible conclusion I've been able to draw is that it gives you a sense of superiority if you are more skilled than your opponent. It takes away the fear that he'll beat you. Call it rashness. It's devastating. The school has talked of punishing the team every time a member gets in a fight. Cutting budget, forcing us to raise the tuition, and it's bad enough, since enough kids already are on partial scholarships that we might not have the funds to augment. I don't know what it is, but the skill to fight comes with the urge to fight, and some people get in unnecessary fights to satisfy that urge. It's tragic, really. It's a goddamn shame.
    Why does the absence of fear lead to violence? Does this imply that the only thing stopping many kids from fighting is fear of losing? If so, don't they clearly lack the requisite virtues associated with non-violence? And if this is the case, why? Why didn't they learn it?
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  8. Uri Shatil is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 2:16am


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not so much that there's no fear of you losing. It's the power that comes with th ability to fight. Wrestling is trained as a sport, and we don't learn virtues. It's not up to Coach Carver to teach student Bill Webber (made up name) not to get in fights. It's up to Mr. and Mrs. Webber. And getting into a fight almost always means that you're off the team. We do tell kids not to get in fights, we do tell them that there will be repercussions if they do, but ultimately we can't build character in them. They have to do it themselves.

    But it's the power that gets them into fights. They become headstrong. They have the power to kick someone's ass, and when that someone gets them angry they use it.

    Yes, of course humility extends off the mat! Arrogance is quickly put down. I've seen kids come in thinking that they're the greatest at everything, and by the time they leave they're put in their place. Trust is definitely something that I had to learn. At my first wrestling practice, I was all touchy, afraid I would get too close to my partner, throw him too hard. Five years later, I could trust someone grappling me who I'd never met before. And I definately, definately learned discipline. Physical discipline, as well as mental. My coach would make us run fifteen sprints if he saw us lying down.

    Of course these virtues extend off of the mat. It's character building.

    But, to answer your question, they didn't learn the virtues because you can't teach a virtue. You can teach what a certain virtue is, what it means to have it, and why it is a good trait, but ultimately you can not instill a virtue in anyone.

    Furthermore, wrestling is not a style of fighting. It's a combat sport, but it is farther removed from a fight than most other fight sports. MMA, BJJ, Kickboxing, and maybe even boxing are closer to a real fight then wrestling. I didn't learn how to fight in high school. I learned how to wrestle. It took me until a few months ago, when I join Bullshido, to realize that I might also have learned how to fight.

    PS But in my case, my dad taught good discipline, and plenty of my character comes from that. And the fact that I have an older brother who'd beat my ass if I did something stupid. Really, character building is up to parents, not coaches.
    Last edited by Uri Shatil; 8/23/2007 2:21am at .
  9. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 3:26am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay. It's just that you said 'The only sensible conclusion I've been able to draw is that it gives you a sense of superiority if you are more skilled than your opponent. It takes away the fear that he'll beat you.' This is why I asked about fear and virtue.

    By the way, you can't teach moral virtue (like you can other non-moral virtues), but you can demonstrate it, and learn it. Perhaps you weren't implying otherwise.
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  10. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2007 6:10am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey
    BJJ has made me an obnoxious, nerdy little **** who can get away with it because I know I won't get my ass kicked. In other words, i'm every social conservative's vision of a kid who didn't get spanked.
    So...you weren't obnoxious before BJJ? Seriousy? I mean, you've had only a short time to practice?

    I'm impressed.
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