All right - I understand now it's a more free-form compilation of observations from notes. That helps. With that said, I'll start a discussion on points.
Space in what way? I don't want to hug onto the head and overhook completely only, or this severely limit my attacks. I don't want him to have SPECIFIC space, like breaking my leg grip in a postured position. I don't mind him moving in the space I give him, as I can use his movements to set up attacks.
Originally Posted by jasculs
Yes - agreed.
As with space you do not want to let your opponent get his posture. When he has his posture he is now able to get his elbows in and head up to work out of your guard.
I'm usually not going for all 3 at once. In a closed guard, the hips are controlled by your closed legs unless you have a high/rubber guard, in which case you need to worry about hip control. I usually move from the hip control to unbalance in some direction, and go for controlling either the head, or an upper body part to set up an attack.
You want to get control of your opponent's hips, head, and upper body
Don't like always. More versatile = a wider variety of attack, and one your opponent like classmates can't learn and nullify. In no gi I agree it is more important to work a high/rubber guard more often. Sometimes I don't mind the sitting back, as it helps me sit up into him and work attacks that way.
Always have your legs higher up on your opponent's waist, closer to his upper back. When they are higher up it is much harder for him to sit back and get his elbows in. You also have your hips off the ground, which allows for better movement on the bottom.
Agree in general, but grip/elbow/knocking hands off fighting in closed guard is very predictable. I like to do that in conjunction with hip movement and posture breaking movement from legs so there is more than one thing for him to concentrate on.
Knock his hand off your body. When he has his hand flat on your body he has the opportunity to push off of you. Like stated before though, if your legs are higher up his waist/closer to his upper back, it is much harder for him to push on your body and regain his posture
[QUOTE]Pull him in with your legs. Do not rely on using just your hands to pull your opponent in close to you. It will not work. Your hands against his whole body are not an even battle. You want to close your legs tightly around your opponent and bring your knees into you, which will cause your opponent to lunge forward
Yes - this is what I was getting at. However, if you're real high fighting for rubber guard, this takes away this movement.
Excellent point, clearly illustrated in one of your videos, and one I need to work on incorporating more.
Control his head. This is a really important point. Where ever the head goes the body goes. So you want to try to control your opponent's head most of the time at least until you have moved onto something better. If you have ever experienced someone constantly pulling down on your head while you were in their guard, you would probably agree that it is very frustrating at times. Also when you pull down on their head you want to pull down on the upper back of their head because that is where you get the most leverage. It is much harder to pull down on your opponent's head once you get closer to his neck area. Donít control directly on the neck
Excellent point also.
Try to control his arms/shoulders. Immediately when you gain control of your opponent's head and bring him close to you, you want to get control of at least one of his shoulders or arms. This gives you a lot of control. You can either overhook one if his arms or underhook one of his arms, but always remember to keep control of his head
Yes - great point - agreed.
After you gain control of your opponent you want to start moving your hips out so you can start working some attacks. Most attacks are going to come from the side or with your hips out. So you need to be a step ahead of your opponent and start moving your hips out right away. The more you stall the more he has to work. Many people make the mistake of not angling out while having a closed guard. It is very possible to have tight control with a closed guard and work angles at the same time
I agree in many attacks - hips out is a great first position. However, some attacks you don't want to immediately move to tightening legs again, like - hip bump sweep, flower sweep, kimura, straight arm bar, triangle, omoplata, scissors sweep. What I will say with most of those attacks is in setting them up, you need to be aware of staying tight in transitional positions to shut down space.
Any movements you make, you want to stay tight at the same time. An example would be to place one of your feet on the ground to aid in scooting your hips out, but as you do this you will always keep control of your opponent's head and shoulder/arm. This way he can't sit up. Once you get your hips out you want to immediately get your legs tight around your opponent's body again. Think of yourself as a Boa Constrictor, always on the move but staying tight at the same time
Sitting up works well there, or some other attacks. You can bait him leaving a pass open too. I agree on the point of being a step ahead. If you're making him react, and are on offense, that's a better game plan.
If you feel you can't stop your opponent from getting his posture and opening your legs. You need to always open your leg voluntarily before he does. Remember you want to always be a step ahead. If he forces your legs open, he will have the upper hand and will most likely be able to control your legs and hips. Always be ready to react and go into a position if you feel your opponent is going to open your legs
Yes - agreed.
When he sits back, try to sit up with him. Remember you always want to be tight. When he goes to push you back, lots of times he will open up an opportunity to gain control
Sometimes getting back to full guard is more difficult. It also helps to have a good blended half guard and butterfly guard game here.
Always practice regaining guard control. During your practice sessions work on letting your partners open your guard and work passes. Then fight your way back into guard.
Can't agree enough on drilling all fundamental movements. Shrimping of different kinds - I know 4 variations, turning over to knees, rolling, etc.
First off, always practice your hip scapes (shrimps), this is a really important fundamental movement that is used in a ton of techniques involved in grappling.
OK - I don't care so much if he's grabbing my legs above the knee as I'm sweeping him. I surely don't want him to be controlling my legs below the knees, opening me up to all the foolocks, heelhooks, and knee attacks.
Secondly, do not let your opponent get control of your legs above your knees, close to your waist. You are in a bad spot if your opponent gains control of your legs close to your hips, or even worse gains control of your hips all together
Yes. I would add hipping out early in closed guard, and learning to switch under pressure to keep the opponent reacting.
Remember a lot of the grappling game especially on the bottom is in the hips
I haven't found myself able to roll well when I'm stacked up really good. In transition, yes. Maybe some people can pull this off better. Especially in gi grappling, when people stack me they maintain control of my legs preventing a backward roll. Working on getting to your knees from many different positions, especially disadvantageous positions, is excellent advice.
Always practice your backward rolls. These are very important in getting back to your knees if your opponent stacks you up and there is no way for you to stop him from passing your guard. If you can roll back to your knees, you're in a much better position. Also work on getting back to your knees during your grappling sessions so you can increase your reaction time
Good solid basic advice.
Always practice your shoulder bridges. These are very important for you if your opponent does pass your guard. You can develop the right mechanics and reaction time to bridge into your opponent and back on your knees, or make at least enough space too scoot back into guard
Yes. One black belt told me that the guard is the most submission rich position in all of grappling. I hadn't thought of it that way before.
Also remember that the closed guard can be a great tool and many attacks and advantages can come from it. Remember to work with it. Too many people use the closed guard to just hold their opponent and stall.
Thanks for submitting for conversation, Jason. Maybe I'm giving you a head start on revising this list or re-examining it for solidarity. At any rate, any further insight you have on the topic I would sure enjoy reading.
Thanks for reading!
chingythingy, sorry for not replying sooner....I will post a reply sometime tomorrow based on your thoughts
lol...that's funny...I posted and then a purple icon showed up with my rank
jasculs: Great vids at YT, man. I'm subbed to your channel I believe. And if not, I will be by the time you read this, as I loved your closed guard vid w/ overhooks, high guard, "cobra", etc. As for your purple icon, I'm sure it's because you are verifiable, ie. a mod knows you can prove your rank, unlike those of us who are not well known enough/have the documentation to show our rank. I do have questions, though:
"Always practice your backward rolls. These are very important in getting back to your knees if your opponent stacks you up and there is no way for you to stop him from passing your guard. If you can roll back to your knees, you're in a much better position. Also work on getting back to your knees during your grappling sessions so you can increase your reaction time."
As most of us here on Bullshido seem to fit into two categories, MMA aspirants or BJJ/Judo competition aspirants, this doesn't relate well to either format, so much as it would to a no-gi or Sub wrestling/sub grappling comp. The reason I say this is that, obviously, in BJJ comps with gi on an opponent who stacks will probably be following one of your other suggestions as espoused on your bullfighter pass, ie. gripping the knees of the gi, making it very hard to roll out. And in MMA, if you're being stacked with the intention of being passed, the pass will generally come as a result of one of the leg wrap or leg stack variations of pass, ie. gable grip around legs and throw to side, or compress knees into chest and switch base, etc., which also does not make rolling backwards very effective or useful. What would you say to those experiencing these forms of passing in relation to this suggestion? Do you have a tip to help in these situations?
Thank you for the list, by the way. It is a good starting place for people to find the holes in their game.
Obviously, by "most of us here" I mean those who post to this specific forum, BJJ and Grappling, not all of Bullshido.net's members. I thought I'd better amend that before someone wandered into this thread to rail against me for assuming that FMA, CMA, JMA, etc. were all grapplers or MMA fighters.
Last edited by Necroth; 8/26/2007 8:45am at .
Doing a backroll is even a valid way of getting to your knees or reguarding with the gi on also...it could be harder at times due to the ability of your opponent to grab your clothes, however this option is just that and "option". You should practice this because you never know when you might need it. I personally don't do backroll guard pass defense a lot, but I do if I need to and it isn't rare for the opportunity arise.
As most of us here on Bullshido seem to fit into two categories, MMA aspirants or BJJ/Judo competition aspirants, this doesn't relate well to either format, so much as it would to a no-gi or Sub wrestling/sub grappling comp.
Also some people when their getting stack don't quite roll the right way and they end up helping the pass. For example when someone is doing a single sided stack pass, many people roll with the side the person. This usually helps your opponent pass...You need to take your leg that is not stack and roll leading with that leg, almost the opposite of what you would probably do naturally. This will help you get in better position at the end.
MMA is a different animal and I probably would not do a backroll to escape as chances are it will expose myself in some manner...I would probably use a different tactic.
And in MMA, if you're being stacked with the intention of being passed, the pass will generally come as a result of one of the leg wrap or leg stack variations of pass, ie. gable grip around legs and throw to side, or compress knees into chest and switch base, etc., which also does not make rolling backwards very effective or useful.
I'm not sure of that helps...cause I may not have read what you were asking correctly.
No, you answered what I asked. I didn't know if you handled MMA training or not, truthfully, but I had hoped you did because I've gotten stacked quite a bit and I train for MMA. I'm just getting used to training with the gi, myself, as I always trained no-gi before joining the Vale Tudo gym I'm at now, so I'm still trying to figure out what to do against the knee grabbers.
Keep up the good work with the vids and I hope you stick around DHS.
I'm asking for detail clarification on this. I'm getting stacked, my opponent is trapping my left leg and endeavoring to pass around to side control on my left side. Are you saying do not roll with my opponent, and back roll over my right shoulder getting to a turtle position? Or what exactly are you saying? Can you describe in detail from the position I am describing?
Originally Posted by jasculs
I think he means instead of using the stack as an assistor to roll (rolling over your left shoulder if being stacked on the right side) you should roll opposite (rolling right for right stack), as the opponent will be more mobile around you in the latter (actually having side top position against your turtle) and take back too easily since they already control the leg on that side. If you, instead, roll the opposite direction (giving them top back with no side turtle control), you can take a single leg to block them taking the back. Hard to visualize with just a description and I can't find a decent vid to illustrate it.
Actually I'm going to drop this. We work 2 or 3 methods for rolling back into a postured position or turtle if you don't have space. If you can roll back getting your head facing your opponent you may have enough space to get to a better posture than turtle and block pursuit. If you can't, turtle is better than being under side control. You can roll out from turtle too and reguard or go for a triangle / omoplata.
Looking at jasculs vids and game, I'm sure he does this. I just think he may have not been as exact with his descriptions. I don't think he has any new thing here that is revolutionary for preventing passes. The descriptions threw me off and had me wondering there.
I asked my BB instructor about this too, and basically the answer was you roll where you have space to roll. He also said he hadn't taught this in a while so will spend some time on it coming up.
I'll try to get a vid up of what I'm talking about when I get a chance.
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO