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  1. nycshindo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 8:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Gorits Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    Having read the Red book in the past I have now slogged through the remaining three. Yes slogged... Kadochnikov was an engineer and he looks at the human body, and fight as an engineer, so they are more like technical manuals than fun reading.

    His second book Мой взгляд на рукопашный бой or "My View of Hand to Hand Fight" is essentially a condensation of his first book Русский рукопашный бой. Научные основы "Russian Hand to Hand Fight. Scientific Basis" it is not as technical, more user friendly ans suited for a beginner as opposed to an instructor that has had ample time training it also only deals with one on one fights, but much more practical than the first book. His third book Психологическая подготовка к рукопашному бою "Psychological Preparation for Hand to Hand Fight" actually this is a book I have been trying to get my hands on for some time. It deals with psycological training to avoid panic and be able to keep your head through the fight, as well as training for more advanced techniques such as monitor and control(see an opening and react without thinking). His fourth book Специальный армейский рукопашный бой. Система А. А. Кадочникова "Special Army Hand to Hand Fight. AA Kadochnikov System." While in the theory section it does re-hash much of the basic technical information found in the Red Book, this is probably his best yet as far a detailed manuals. It shows the foundational techniques and principles with very nice illustrations. It deals with un-armed and armed defense against one or more opponents(also armed or unarmed) with very sound strategy(in my book) "attempt manuever so that you are never actually fighting more than one at a time, thus chance for survivability is optimized" and "survivability decreases exponentially in direct proportion to the number of opponents actively engaged." He also diagrams obstacle courses and such for training of soldiers.

    So yes theory sections are the same in three of the four books(and if that is as far as you read... then I can understand your statement) but the application sections are vastly different.

    As far as odd pronouncements, I am not aware of any pronouncement that has not been or cannot be independantly verified. Even the History Channel's Human Weapon Episode made the training connection between Retuinskih before his sport career, and KGB and GRU-Spetz.

    So really unless you can provide something substantial, preferably in the English language as opposed to vague references to Russian Sites while all the time quoting Vadim Starov... please move on.
    MELK - re the site - you're welcome. You should've called the thread Riabko - bad, Kadoch - good to make it clearer. It would be nice if everyone who disagreed with you just moved on.

    Let me me remind you about your own post (name, page #, etc.) - have to apply it to your own posts, it's called internally consistent and mutually supportive argumentation. Well-documented be thrid parties and posted on the inet is not evidence. By the way, where do you thing the separation papers came from? The posted copy came from the person who got them and if "General" (you didn't seem to have an issue with an earlier post suggesting he bought his generalship) Retiunskih is ruimored to have bought his rank in this thread than why would you put trust in a copy of somebody's separation papers? Btw, GRU is not Skull & Bones, you don't get inducted. Look at the bio - the guy stayed with the same unit as a launch engineer until his separation. If he joined the GRU, he'd have to do the Academy and move to a GRU outfit.

    On a related subject, I shouldn't have capitalize ALL. Having said that, if after 40+ years of training Systema you can't produce a senior level student that chose to stay with you that's still telling. How many times did Retiunskih mentioned Kadochnikov in that HW episode again?


    Anyway, on to trollshido. You don't have to quote Starov (another student, btw). Just take another look at the books you supposedly read:

    Book 1 (Russian H2H) - and I'm just paging through:

    Intro: Style of the 21st Century (I thought it was ancient) - p10-11 - Mr. K introduced to h2h the unheard-of concepts of "controlling your body" and "controlling your enemy"
    p. 16 - a real h2h warrior is the one who defends his Orthodox Christian Faith. This is expanded upon on p. 75-76 and ends in a lenghy discourse on the the root of Russian holiness based on Orthodox Christianity on pp 80 & 90. Without belaboring the point, the book's history expose extends into the pre-C period and there are 30 million Muslims, millions of Jews and Buddhists in Russia. Are they already out of luck?
    This is augmented with slanted HS-level history and pictures extending all the way to p. 90 (don't miss p.70 btw - apparently the US experimented with killing condemned prisoners by fear - the water & ruler experiment).
    Another X number of pages with basic anatomy and HS mechanics - and I mean formulas & graphs - was it part of your certification curriculum? I bet it helps a lot in a fight - let's try p. 180:

    "...then the condition of a construction crane boom as a 3rd category lever is represented as a PgdA-GdibrB-GgrC=0 where ... and the required force of a hydrolic jack is Pgd=(GstrB+Gtc)/A" - continue? If mechanics are critical to MA training, let me know I have my college textbooks for sale.

    From p. 218 on - an extended lyrical bio, interviews with the man and "testimonials" and group shots. The book is 287 pages long. Would you pay for it?

    Book 2 (My view on the Russian H2H) - same - and not just the theory. Oh wait - there's a psychobabble section (p. 62 and beyond): "Naturally, a question arises concerning the interaction of the said cognitive mechanism of information reflection from the higher (universal) system of control - Superconcsiousness. This interaction is carried out at the level of digital code as only this language is equally understood by both the Material and the Ideal. The interaction of the Material and the Ideal is carried out at the level of process called stochastic. In fact, these processes are strictly deterministic and flow on a certain level of activity." - what?


    The book is kind enough to include a ton of interviews to pad it. My personal favorite is the Matushin interview (p. 78): "At times I thought I was listening to utter delirium. The a thought would visit me that I was listening to some sort of Russian Zen." He later concludes that it was even deeper than that but he may have been right the first time.

    You need more random statements? All right,

    p.92 - "Some units of the Chinese Army have started training using Kadochnikov's methods. According to some information (?), the instructors attended colleges in Russia & Ukraine and somehow gained access to the Russian h2h instruction" - Somehow?? Maybe they just bought the books off the Inet...

    p.94 - Q: "Can you say that the West, even if it got the System, wouldn't understand it (since it's founded on our traditions)? - A: "Of course. It's our roots, it's our wealth. And, clearly, no normal person would ever sell them.

    p. 106 - "...among the highly-praised [sarcastic form] "green berets" Russian names aren't uncommon, furthermore, in combat training textbooks of the US Armed Forces, in the section "H2H", there are pictures and explanations from the Russian Tsarist Army, and, surprisingly, with the sources cited."

    That's just a sampling - getting too tired to plough through the rest of this material.


    Btw, in Book 1 - 287 pages - there's no technique whatsoever until p. 198 and - oops - it end on p. 213.


    There's a simple test - an MA system has to be popular in its own country and at least feature prominently in some tournaments. Imagine China without San Da or Japan withoug Karate. How come then that Kadoch's system, after 40+ years of training "killers" is not represented anywhere and is trampled by Pilat's Combat Hopak in Ukraine and Belov's Gorits Fighting in Russia? It's too deadly for tournaments, I know. Not too deadly for demonstrations though.

    Anyway, if you want an opinion on the System from an influential Rus MA guru, why don't you read this:

    http://www.conten.ru/content/view/58/75/
  2. nycshindo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2007 8:34pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Gorits Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    Believe me, I understand how rigorous that dance is. I can barely do a pistol.

    What's your primary style nycshindo, how do you know so much about RMA?

    And thanks for all the links.
    Combat Sambo believe it or not. Been tourning for a while now and dealing with the RMA people a lot. Had to speak Russian in my line of biz. Shindo is Japanese for progress though.
  3. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2007 12:23pm


     Style: *********

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    NYCShindo-
    Look you have it in for Mr. K that's fine, doesn't really hurt my feelings. Truth be told this an argument for a Russian language forum. Mostly there you would get eaten alive, but hey... it is what it is.

    You and I can argue over what his books say... but no one else here would be able to tell who is telling the truth or not. Secondly the reason I think Mr K is a waste of time for this forum, is that he is not now teaching or selling in the US(the primary audience for this Forum), nor does he have any immediate plans to. So what's the point? He is discussed on Russian language forums, and there rather favorably. It is not that he has held no students, you just don't hear about the ones that haven't left.

    I read the website that you gave, and for the most part I agree with it. That is why Victor Sergey and Matt Powell started PraMek. To fix those very definciencies. If you think you don't get resistant training from Matt, take one of his semminars some time, and than tell me that.

    As far as Kadochnikov books in English, I have working translations going on book 3 and 4. They are veryrough. Some words are still in Russian(still trying to find them in a dictionary) and right now it is very literal(not at all dynamic), in other words it reads with a Russian grammar. If you are interested PM and I will send them over when I get a chance.
  4. nycshindo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2007 7:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Gorits Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    NYCShindo-
    Look you have it in for Mr. K that's fine, doesn't really hurt my feelings. Truth be told this an argument for a Russian language forum. Mostly there you would get eaten alive, but hey... it is what it is.

    You and I can argue over what his books say... but no one else here would be able to tell who is telling the truth or not. Secondly the reason I think Mr K is a waste of time for this forum, is that he is not now teaching or selling in the US(the primary audience for this Forum), nor does he have any immediate plans to. So what's the point? He is discussed on Russian language forums, and there rather favorably. It is not that he has held no students, you just don't hear about the ones that haven't left.

    I read the website that you gave, and for the most part I agree with it. That is why Victor Sergey and Matt Powell started PraMek. To fix those very definciencies. If you think you don't get resistant training from Matt, take one of his semminars some time, and than tell me that.

    As far as Kadochnikov books in English, I have working translations going on book 3 and 4. They are veryrough. Some words are still in Russian(still trying to find them in a dictionary) and right now it is very literal(not at all dynamic), in other words it reads with a Russian grammar. If you are interested PM and I will send them over when I get a chance.

    Funnily, I have nothing against Mr. K per se. I only tried to point out the things that stuck out to me. I heard the name, saw a couple of impressively staged vids and was unfortunate enough to actually have a friend get me some K materials thinking that this would be the real deal, the actually functioning origin of Systema. I was disappointed to put it mildly - plus it turns out they are available on the Net anyway - it seems like the Starov version comes as Spetznaz System and the K version comes as Kadoch System (compare the books on kadochnikov.info vs. kadochnikov.ru - the books are identical except for the cover).

    I actually checked out the Rus forums and it does seems like Slavo-Gorits fighting's the flavor of the month in Russia. There are tourny clips available on the Net - for all you RMA lovers out there - that make Kyokushin look like a sensitivity drill. From what I've seen personally, whatever permutation of Systema they practice, after a couple of slaps all Systema practioners become whatever they were before they discovered the Ultimate System (C) - boxers, wrestlers, etc. or they get trampled on. Gone are the "rollover defenses" (made famous by the suicide shovel and knife disarm vids), the "wave strikes", etc. The Systema croud would be quick to flood you with names if you said something like that but my point is somebody with 15 years in Sambo and 5 months in Systema is not a Systema man whether he wins the bout or not. If you put a set of Systema cammies on Mike Tyson and let him have it at a local tourny it wouldn't be a victory for Systema.


    By the way, Gorits fighting also claims to train Rus Spetz - here's a video clip for your enjoyment. That's the tiring part - there are legit combat proven RMA's such as Sambo and about a million "personality" RMAs (think Bruce Lee and JKD - once he's gone no-one even knows what it is anymore since it has to be a system without a system) - Systema, Gorits, Buza, etc. - every RMA now claims to be (a) dinosaur-grade ancient and (b) a Spetz training system. Wait until the chess players jump on the bandwagon.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
  5. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2007 2:55am


     Style: *********

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycshindo
    It seems like the Starov version comes as Spetznaz System and the K version comes as Kadoch System (compare the books on kadochnikov.info vs. kadochnikov.ru - the books are identical except for the cover).

    I actually checked out the Rus forums and it does seems like Slavo-Gorits fighting's the flavor of the month in Russia. There are tourny clips available on the Net - for all you RMA lovers out there - that make Kyokushin look like a sensitivity drill. From what I've seen personally, whatever permutation of Systema they practice, after a couple of slaps all Systema practioners become whatever they were before they discovered the Ultimate System (C) - boxers, wrestlers, etc. or they get trampled on. Gone are the "rollover defenses" (made famous by the suicide shovel and knife disarm vids), the "wave strikes", etc. The Systema croud would be quick to flood you with names if you said something like that but my point is somebody with 15 years in Sambo and 5 months in Systema is not a Systema man whether he wins the bout or not. If you put a set of Systema cammies on Mike Tyson and let him have it at a local tourny it wouldn't be a victory for Systema.


    By the way, Gorits fighting also claims to train Rus Spetz - here's a video clip for your enjoyment. That's the tiring part - there are legit combat proven RMA's such as Sambo and about a million "personality" RMAs (think Bruce Lee and JKD - once he's gone no-one even knows what it is anymore since it has to be a system without a system) - Systema, Gorits, Buza, etc. - every RMA now claims to be (a) dinosaur-grade ancient and (b) a Spetz training system. Wait until the chess players jump on the bandwagon.
    Starov is desperately trying to make money off the Spetznaz name, however I am going to leave him out as there is already a thread on him. As far as Mr. K teaching Spets he did from the mid-70's through his prime in the 80's and 90's and then is the early 2000's Spets from my understanding starting learning from variety of sources at the Krasnodar School of Personal Protection(started by Mr K's two most prominent students after the break over Starov).

    I know this is going to sound like a tired argument, but the only way to really understand the Mr. K vids is to actually train with one of his students. The Vids are primarily demonstrations, and even then I would suggest beyond Basic Elements, Strikes, and Grips(beyond that Starov started the LARPing on the Vids). The vids from my experience only demonstrate text book cases, and while those will work, adaptations need to be done.

    For instance I was teaching hear in Israel, and I had a BJJ Blue Belt that came to check it out, because he would give good resistance(actually for a while he refused to be compliant for me to demonstrate the principles) I used him for demonstrations. I typically like to give a "compliant" demonstration and then a fully resistant one, just to show the difference, and how the principles still work, but it may take little finnessing. Anyway at one point I have him sink a RNC. Now if you have never been in a properly placed RNC by someone who still isn't sure if your MA is BS and thus is convinced he is going to choke you out, let me tell you it is NOT comfortable. Typical Kadoch/Pramek/ROSS defense is to punch the triceps to give you some breathing room and clear the forearm from your throat, then(let's say his right arm is hugging your throat) rotate your hips to the left and squat, this should dump your opponent on the ground and release the hold... unless he is BJJ bluebelt that manages to fairly well imobilize your hips and keeps sliding that forearem back across your throat. Now the first thing I wanted to demonstrate is that if you managed to pop the arm right, and relaxed instead of panicing you could go well past the 7-10 seconds in which most people pass out, so I had already stood there being chocked for 25seconds just to make my point, and then I started trying my escape, only to find that Plan A was not going to work, switch to Plan B wave like shoulder Rotation also was not going to work, Plan C bite, eye-gouge, or groin shot-- nope nothing doing, Plan D(yes I got down to my last ditch never fail, but it puts me on the ground where I don't want to be unless its a one on one cage match) but I am out of opitions, so I limp body kick my legs out take us both down use my arm and body over which to bend 2 or three fingers(did I mention that we are now approaching the 40-45 second mark and I am seeing stars?) peel and roll over onto my belly to achieve a position of advantage as I apply a wrist lock. Ok so it took me some time, and it hurt to swallow for a week, but it worked. Likelyhood of ever actually finding myself in that situation is rather low, as I don't plan to passively let anyone sink their best RNC on me and tell him to try to choke me out, let alone a grappling expert, in anything but a training situation.

    As far as doing what you are most trained in, I will say of course, however there are people, like DDempsey on this forum that find aspects of Kadoch that work in their BJJ as well.

    Fiinally of Victor Sergey and Matt, I find it most interesting that they don't think their art is the best, they believe that distinction falls to Tescao.
  6. nycshindo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2007 12:55pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Gorits Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Tescao

    Damn. I would pass out after being RNCd for 5-10 sec I think. Anyway, don't know what Tescao is but will check it out - you got my curiosity piqued.
  7. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2007 1:02pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to say that you two arguing has made this one of the most informative RMA threads ever.
  8. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2007 5:34pm


     Style: *********

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nycshindo
    Damn. I would pass out after being RNCd for 5-10 sec I think. Anyway, don't know what Tescao is but will check it out - you got my curiosity piqued.
    Tescao is a Tibetan MA that moved to Siberia during the Chinese crackdown. It emphasises a lot body weight drills, strikes are fairly linear(as opposed to RMAs) and there are some other differences, including some incredibly high velocity throws. The primary disadvantage is that in some ways it is like a TMA or BJJ in that it takes years to master and gain a high level of proficiency where as in like PraMek a good level of proficiency can be gained in about three months.

    There is actually a branch in Atlanta that I understand Matt works out with from time to time as part of the evolution of PraMek.

    As far as not blacking out when being RNCd the trick is(and in many ways if not trained to the point of habit it will only ever be a parlor trick) to RELAX now that sounds rather counter intuitive, but I will explain. The second part is to make sure the arm is not crushing the trachea, so that some air can still pass. The relaxation part is to keep blood flowing TO the brain. The major arteries have a great deal of pressure going through them and are positioned deeper inside the neck. If the muscles remain flacid the arteries will typically stay open. The veins however are on the outer portion and have nowhere near as much pressure so they will close. As long as oxyginated blood is flowing to the brain you have between 45-50sec before you will black out/pass out due to overload of pressure(which can also be fatal). Now the trick is oxygenated blood, if the body is in a panic it will burn through the oxygen stores quickly, if relaxed you have about enough to go a minute maybe more(here it all depends on the amount of air in the lungs), there are ways to actually train for higher efficiency, and I would be happy to share those on this forum, however I know only the ROSS terms which could and probably would open me up to a law suit if I shared those(if you really need me to explain why ask) and I haven't been able to find a good alternate translation yet for the Russian that Kadochnikov uses. So aside from metabolic and respiratory effinciency the other possibility is get some air into and out of the lungs. If relaxed, this should be possible(though uncomfortable) by clearing the forearm form the trachea. Hence punching the triceps near the elbow to force the forearm off of the throat, and the throat into the crook of the arm. One benefit you have going for you if you can do all of this, which is primarily a matter of training with a resistant partner, is than an individual can typically only hold a position like that for 45sec before the muscles give. This means either the hold is going to go slack, or they have to readjust. So if all else fails, but you have managed to stay relaxed, this is your absolute last ditch possibility.
  9. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2007 9:14pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    As long as oxyginated blood is flowing to the brain you have between 45-50sec before you will black out/pass out due to overload of pressure(which can also be fatal). Now the trick is oxygenated blood, if the body is in a panic it will burn through the oxygen stores quickly, if relaxed you have about enough to go a minute maybe more(here it all depends on the amount of air in the lungs), there are ways to actually train for higher efficiency, and I would be happy to share those on this forum, however I know only the ROSS terms which could and probably would open me up to a law suit if I shared those(if you really need me to explain why ask) and I haven't been able to find a good alternate translation yet for the Russian that Kadochnikov uses.
    I know of four methods to achieve this effect.

    1. The use of EPO aka erythropoietin (sp?)

    2. Perodization training (i.e. tabata drills or farlicks.)

    3. High altitude/low oxygen training.

    4. "Square Breathing" a technique taught in Ryabko's systema.

    I would love to find out what techniques Mr K. suggests, as increasing your hematocrit does wonders for your endurance and your ability to recover from bouts of intense exercise.

    Melk, would you be offended if I asked to see the stuff you've translated into English? I have a copy of one of K's books (specialnee armisky rookopashni boi?) but for obvious reasons it's a little hard to read.

    edit: If you need help with recreating layout, etc. I'd be happy to assist.
    Last edited by SFGOON; 11/18/2007 9:16pm at .
  10. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2007 11:08pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i like where this is going =)

    We've played with RNC's at Vlad's school a few times. Letting the choke sink in and just expanding our awareness so we can feel what is actually happening to our body, how its reacting, etc. Its a fun experience, kinda like facing your worst fear in a way (if it were ur worst fear)

    and yeah, relaxation is the key for sure.

    the first class i took in BJJ, we were doing RNCs. I was working with a purple belt and he was kinda worried when i wasnt tapping to it. He lets go about 20 secs in cuz he thought i was gonna spit blood or somethin. At no point did i feel in any danger tho, it just "sounded" bad as my tiny lil pinhole of a breathing pathway sounded like i was gonna explode. I had to re-assure him that it wasnt a problem and to slap it back on so i can test my limits in a safe way...etc

    I enjoy these type of things in a safe environment. It really helps you get to know your fears and experiment with it. Much like mass attacks. My panic button was set off through the roof when i was first exposed to that in systema. I stayed on the outside a lot, worried about getting pounded if i engaged at all with any more than 1 attacker. 3 weeks later, i was swimming in the middle of the crowd with ease.

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