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  1. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2007 12:13pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So Kirk is a confirmed 1st Dan in Judo. You would assume that he would have also been listed in the 5th Dan rankings if he indeed actually possessed a 6th Dan
    yes, that was my take as well.

    Are Kosen Judo rankings separated out from the Kodokan rankings?
    I have no idea, but Hoenig said he had a 6th dan from the Kodokan.

    That would seem to definitively confirm that Jules was never sworn in as an SPCC agent in the state of NY.
    Not necessarily. It would confirm that he never worked for the NY SPCC (which is the oldest and largest) based in manhattan. But, he may have worked in the Bronx spcc which is a completely independent entity. There are 11 SPCCs in NYS - all independed orgs. Hoenig has never stated which SPCC he worked for, only that he worked in the Bronx/Westchester area...so it is guesswork at this point. The Bronx SPCC as I have mentioned is not so easy to contact...as their answering service referred me back to the NY SPCC. Very strange indeed.

    However, I believe Hawaii is the key to the SPCC puzzle in that Jules claimed to have been actually sworn in in Hawaii, correct?
    I agree. At this time it seems there is currently no Hawaii SPCC, but as I said above, it clearly did exist at one point based on older literature. I am trying to find out when they ceased operation or if they are still in operation. There is absolutely nothing on the net or hawaii phone directories about them in regards to contact info...just a few references to them in reports about the SPCC system in the US.

    Guys, just feel I should mention that Kodokan grades are not the same as national grades. You need to check whichever US association this person was a member of. Maybe he's a 6th in the US and the author got confused about who issued his grade.
    Good point. He could have been a USJA or USJF judoka...we could check this out. I have contacted both the USJA and USJF about this. However, Hoenig did specifically say 6th dan from the kodokan. Which is different that a 6th Dan in Kodokan Judo. But, I do agrre that it would be smart to cover all bases.

    I also want to note that if Kirk was not ranked a 6th dan, it could mean several things...
    -an error on the part of the Kodokan
    -that Hoenig lied about Kirk
    -that Hoenig told the truth, but was lied to by Kirk
    -that they both lied
    Last edited by sambosteve; 8/30/2007 12:41pm at .
  2. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2007 1:46pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve
    But, he may have worked in the Bronx spcc which is a completely independent entity. There are 11 SPCCs in NYS - all independed orgs.
    Good point, I must have missed this.

    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve
    He could have been a USJA or USJF judoka...we could check this out. I have contacted both the USJA and USJF about this. However, Hoenig did specifically say 6th dan from the kodokan. Which is different that a 6th Dan in Kodokan Judo. But, I do agrre that it would be smart to cover all bases.
    I'm not that familiar with Judo politics. I know Scrapper on these boards mentioned something a while back about there being a bit of politicking going on in the judo community (honestly nothing different than any other MA community) that may have some bearing on the "type" of judo grading, i.e., whether is was awarded by a direct kodokan affiliate or some college judo club instructor.

    I was also under the impression that the USJA and the USJF simply RECOGNIZED rank as opposed to AWARDED rank. Although, that being said, if either of those USA Judo governing bodies did recognize the rank there should be some sort of lineage tree discernible from that recognition.
  3. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 12:14am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In line with the Kodokan's reply, I recieved this e-mail from the USJF regarding Kirk's Judo rank:

    Hello,

    He received his Shodan from the USJF in 1984. He has not been
    registered with us since the early 90's.

    Renee
  4. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 12:48pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From USJA:

    Steve,

    I have checked our records and we no record of Alexander Kirk. He has never been a member or ever registering a rank with us. Please let me know if I can help you with anything else.

    Sincerely,

    Dee Dee
    UNITED STATES JUDO ASSOCIATION
    DeeDee Weller
    Data Entry
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 1:17pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is what I received

    Good Morning,

    I do not have any member in my system with the name of Alexander Kirk.
    Please let me know if I can assist you with anything else.

    Monica





    Monica Wright-Tafoya
    Membership Services Director
    USA JUDO
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 1:21pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From : National Office
    Sent : Friday, August 31, 2007 6:02 AM
    To :
    Subject : Re: [USJF-WEB] Membership Question


    The only rank I show is his Shodan.

    Terri


    On Aug 30, 2007, at 5:27 PM, wrote:

    Thank you very much is that the only rank he held or was he promoted any higher?

    Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:13:05 -0600
    He received his Shodan with the USJF in 1984.

    Renee
    On Aug 30, 2007, at 10:37 AM, wrote:


    Hello,

    I'm currently looking for information concerning A Gentleman named Alexander Kirk. I have been able to determine his ranking as 1st Dan according to the Kodokan in Japan.

    I'm trying to confirm his rank in any organization with in the United States.

    Thank you for any help
    I asked for clarification if he was a higher rank.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 8/31/2007 1:25pm at .
  7. sambosteve is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2007 2:05pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So it seems according to the Kodokan, USA Judo, USJA, and USJF. The only rank Kirk held was a 1st Dan in Judo.

    There is always the possibility that Kirk trained with someone who never registered his rank. But, we don't know who Kirk Trained with except for Urban...which has not been confirmed. I would like to know who he studied Aikido with...combat JuJitsu as well. I did write to Urban's daughter and the head of Urban's USA Goju Organization about Kirk.
  8. knifehand1 is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 6:10pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Goju Ryu, Aikido, JuJitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I must admit, I really....REALLY am absolutely amazed at some of you guys. Just to let ALL of the members on this site know, I just started receiving harrasing PHONE CALLS from one of your members who claimed to be the head, or director, or some position of importance here on this site.
    Whomever you are, please know this.......
    NEXTEL has been contacted, as well as my local police department regarding these calls.
    Just because you "blocked" your number, dont be foolish enough to think they will not find out who you are.
    In their first call to me, when I asked who was calling, the person said they were from Bullshido, inquiring about .....and when I interrupted and said "You guys are unbelievable.....how did you get this number ?"......They said ....."It was listed right next to the picture of the naked little boy...."..........and started laughing and hung up.
    You may have noticed that I havent been here in a little bit.....mostly because Ive been busy working, but also because I really dont care anymore. I posted my certificates for you to see as I said I would, and Ive really lost interest in going any further with this.
    Im just amazed that one or more of your members would take this as far as to actually CALL me and make harrassing calls, and leave a harrassing message.
    As I said.....NEXTEL, as well as the police have been contacted. I would suggest that this action stops now. It has already "crossed a line" that should not have been crossed.
  9. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 7:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did you file a police report?
  10. kwoww is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 7:35pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by knifehand1
    Well, I must admit, I really....REALLY am absolutely amazed at some of you guys. Just to let ALL of the members on this site know, I just started receiving harrasing PHONE CALLS from one of your members who claimed to be the head, or director, or some position of importance here on this site.
    Whomever you are, please know this.......
    NEXTEL has been contacted, as well as my local police department regarding these calls.
    Just because you "blocked" your number, dont be foolish enough to think they will not find out who you are.
    In their first call to me, when I asked who was calling, the person said they were from Bullshido, inquiring about .....and when I interrupted and said "You guys are unbelievable.....how did you get this number ?"......They said ....."It was listed right next to the picture of the naked little boy...."..........and started laughing and hung up.
    You may have noticed that I havent been here in a little bit.....mostly because Ive been busy working, but also because I really dont care anymore. I posted my certificates for you to see as I said I would, and Ive really lost interest in going any further with this.
    Im just amazed that one or more of your members would take this as far as to actually CALL me and make harrassing calls, and leave a harrassing message.
    As I said.....NEXTEL, as well as the police have been contacted. I would suggest that this action stops now. It has already "crossed a line" that should not have been crossed.
    The website as a whole can't be responsible for the actions of its members. So far, the investigation so far seems to be professional. And besides, at this point it's more concerned with Kirk.
    Last edited by kwoww; 9/03/2007 7:38pm at .

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