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  1. bob is offline
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    Prophet of Apathy

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:12am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    Switchblade:

    bornsceptic isjust playing with you. It's not clever and it's not even funny.

    Bornsceptic:

    'Not learning to fight' is not what he said. 'learning not to fight' was the original and you know damn well what he meant.

    The difference between a sport and a martial art comes down to stuff like that:
    Learning how to win a fight is not the same as knowing when you need to fight and avoiding unnecessary conflict. It goes hand in had with teaching fighting skills. Or are you telling me your club lets in any meathead, teaches them how to damage someone better and doesn't care what he uses it for?

    I ame no MMA or TMA distinction here - Boxing clubs are just as capable of taking troubled street kids and turning them into respectful adults as any Karate club. It's all down to the attitude of the instructor rather than any set of techniques. Give the guy a break.
    Give him a break? I wasn't aware I was even giving him a hard time. I was just making a general statement regarding the OP. I said I wasn't sure whether he made that argument or not.

    I'm confused by your post. The difference between a sport and a martial art? Then you go on to say that there is no difference. What exactly is the difference here?
  2. Frank White is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:17am


     Style: chinese boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes I did learn to fight. After I was taught fighting should be a last resort, and my sensei had faith in me. That gave me self-confidence, which in turn lead me to fighting less.

    It's definitely not a given that you learn discipline and respect from TMA. Or boxing, or MMA. You learn these things from good people. However, if you learn MMA without respect it is much more dangerous than Aikido without respect.

    Do you learn to respect others from combat sports? I would imagine it depends on whose teaching. I don't know from combat sports though. And chances are TMAs sprouting about their deadliness on the internet are probably not that deadly. Except on the internet of course.
  3. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:19am


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    bornsceptiic:

    I edited, sorry, should make more sense if you read back.

    You just seemed to be riding the guy by twisiting his words when he seems already to be struggling a bit with his words - kinda harsh I thought. No offence meant.
  4. Frank White is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:24am


     Style: chinese boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a big boy, I can take it.
  5. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:33am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    'Not learning to fight' is not what he said. 'learning not to fight' was the original and you know damn well what he meant. Part of any fighting art is knowing not just HOW to apply it but WHEN and WHERE, or the 'martial' aspect is out of the window.
    Actually Martial means war. So the "Martial" aspect of it would be counter to your argument.
    Please see my sig for more on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiaki
    The difference between a sport and a martial art comes down to stuff like that IMHO. By all means pursue a SPORT and never ever think of using it in the world outside, but if you are learning a MARTIAL art you are, by definition, learning skills for fighting an enemy, not an 'opponent':
    What the **** does this psycho babble mean?
    If someone attacks me them labeling them an "opponent" or an "enemy" doesnt change the fact that they are attacking me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiaki
    Learning how to win a fight is not the same as knowing when you need to fight and avoiding unnecessary conflict.
    You watch to much Karate Kid. Beliefs like this are what have fucked up the Martial Arts and gotten them away from their orginal intent.
    MA Schools in America only started adding the "honor, integrity, discipline" bullshit because it is a good marketing technique. So parents who dont like the idea of fighting could justify enrolling their child in a MA.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiaki
    Or are you telling me your club lets in any meathead, teaches them how to damage someone better and doesn't care what he uses it for?
    Pretty much. As long as they are paying for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiaki
    I make no MMA or TMA distinction here - Boxing clubs are just as capable of taking troubled street kids and turning them into respectful adults as any Karate club. It's all down to the attitude of the instructor rather than any set of techniques.
    Yeah because all the pro boxers of the world are such role models.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiaki
    I don't do stupid. :)
    Yes you do, please look at your past posts.
    Last edited by HonkyTonkMan; 8/17/2007 5:35am at .
  6. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:37am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    bornsceptiic:

    I edited, sorry, should make more sense if you read back.

    You just seemed to be riding the guy by twisiting his words when he seems already to be struggling a bit with his words - kinda harsh I thought. No offence meant.
    So if BS had learned from a better school then he would have known how not to be a meanie pants?

    As for harsh......I will show you harsh.
  7. bob is offline
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    Prophet of Apathy

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:38am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by switchblade
    Yes I did learn to fight. After I was taught fighting should be a last resort, and my sensei had faith in me. That gave me self-confidence, which in turn lead me to fighting less.

    It's definitely not a given that you learn discipline and respect from TMA. Or boxing, or MMA. You learn these things from good people. However, if you learn MMA without respect it is much more dangerous than Aikido without respect.

    Do you learn to respect others from combat sports? I would imagine it depends on whose teaching. I don't know from combat sports though. And chances are TMAs sprouting about their deadliness on the internet are probably not that deadly. Except on the internet of course.
    Agreed.

    Perhaps I should clarify my reasons here. There seems to be a prevailing opinion amongst some TMA practicioners that they somehow have a mortgage on discipline, respect and humility. I assumed this is what the original poster was saying. This runs completely counter to my own experience in both (which has been more in TMA than MMA). I fully admit that this is only one person's experience.
  8. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:39am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bornsceptic
    Agreed.

    Perhaps I should clarify my reasons here. There seems to be a prevailing opinion amongst some TMA practicioners that they somehow have a mortgage on discipline, respect and humility. I assumed this is what the original poster was saying. This runs completely counter to my own experience in both (which has been more in TMA than MMA). I fully admit that this is only one person's experience.
    Nay my friend. Tis also mine own experience in the TMA's.
  9. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:43am


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Switchblade - not to get into the old stale Aikido vs MMA stuff, but if you teach a guy who is a beginner and looks like he is just looking for better ways to beat up people, he should be thrown out of there long before he learns anything useful, whatever the MA.

    There's plenty to learn from MMA but a lot of the 'wannabee streetfighter' guys like this I've met want simple and quick ways to bully someone. IMHO Aikido, Judo, Grappling etc. are way behind Boxing and Karate if you want to pick up such stuff quickly. For example, beginners in Aikido learn simple defences first - it's a long time before they are good enough to use pre-emptive attacks (yes, Aikido allows them) and effective strikes. The Judo and (very small amount) of grappling I've done seem to take an equally long time to be good enough to use in a street fight.

    So it boils down to this: IMHO anyone willing to teach someone else a MA, knowing that the guy just wants to use it as an aggressor on the street is somewhere on the spectrum between teaching safebreaking and bomb-making and should be locked up as an accessory if the guy commits the crime.

    If in any doubt at all show them the door - I've seen the fallout for myself: in the eyes of the press the idiot you taught for a month and who gets arrested for assault becomes a 'martial arts expert' and your club is likely to get named.

    oldman34: if you really mean what you say - you teach pretty much anyone, then I hope you are well insured, cos that really is doing stupid!
    Last edited by kiaiki; 8/17/2007 5:46am at .
  10. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2007 5:48am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How should the teacher be held responsible?

    What if I teach a guy who seems ok, then suddenly kicks the hsit out of someone? Am I then responsible for him too?

    Stop being such a fucktard.
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