Stav?

**Hedgehogey** · Posted On: 8/15/2007 9:19pm

I'm sorry, Zen-chan, but do you have a point, other than that you don't like black liberation groups?

Because, while Bailey's murder was certainly tragic and wrong, subsuquent investigations have turned up evidence that he may have, in fact, been black as the ace of spades.

**The Crack Taoist** · Posted On: 8/16/2007 12:11am

Originally Posted by Hedgehogey

Additonally, use of Runes, particularly the Wolfsangel and Tyr runes are one indication (though not the only ones, and taken in isolation are not positive identifiers) of neo-nazi/"aryan" supremacist affiliation.

It is these runes:

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_odin_rune.asp
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/neo_nazi_life_rune.asp
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/neo_nazi_tyr_rune.asp
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_stormfront.asp

..SNIP...

Nevertheless, an entire made up martial art based on imitating runes is not only objectively ridiculous in the historical department (just like the nazi's "aryan heritage" claims) but also comes dangerously close to being a cheap ploy to attract customers from "heritage" groups.

Hedgehogey,

Speaking as someone with an intimate knowledge of the Troth, both in
it's Folkish and Universalist manifestations.. I'd have to say that your
description.. while it may be somewhat accurate for folks not genuinely
associated with heathenry (like many supremacists) really isn't appropriate
to apply to genuine heathens.. even the ones who are genuinely intolerant
(and make no mistake.. there ARE Asa-Folk of that type!).

A genuine heathen with a real understanding of the runes would chuckle..
because the ADL description is far from accurate.

For instance.. the first rune they describe

are variants of the rune Othala/Othel.

This is not the rune of Odhinn/Odin.

Othala is the rune of the homeland, the hearth, the sacred fire
at the heart of the hall. It is the symbol of ancestral earth and
the graveyards and harrows of the tribe. The Othal is a good
neutral rune to wear to blot.. it can offend no one who is Tru
to the Aesir. It is the rune worn by the Peacegiver.. especially
if worn with one of Frigga's symbols (she guards the Frith or
Peace-bond).

The proper rune for Odhinn is Ansuz...

Any true follower of Odhinn wishing to wear the rune
associated with than Diety would wear the Ansuz rune.. or
perhaps the Valknuttr (Knot of the Slain).

People who wear the Othal rune are among the least likely
heathens to be intolerant. They are usually partial to the Vanir!!
Similarly persons who wear the Tiwaz/Tyr rune are (by their own
account) interested in emulating the virtues of the One-Handed,
the Truth-Teller, the Oath-Holder, Tyr. Many of them will maintain
that racism.. being founded on a lie, is especially abhorrent to
Tyr their Patron.

So all these symbols.. when used in the old way by those who truly
understand them.. are as far as can be imagined from shallow racism.

The Stav people have *many* flaws.. and I am not a fan...
but being intolerant is probably not much of an issue for them...
they may not be much for real martial arts...
but they are too deep in the heathenry for such a racism
problem to be overly likely.

Just some background.. for informational purposes...

**Hedgehogey** · Posted On: 8/16/2007 12:37am

Oh make no mistake, i'm not trying to imply that WPers have any kind of understanding of they symbolism of their runes besides HUURRDUUUR IS GERMANIK but rather to illustrate which runes are most likely to be found tattooed on their bodies.

**Necroth** · Posted On: 8/16/2007 6:14pm

In large part, ANY Germanic/Nordic heritage group will ultimately use the most common runeset of the area, which is Futhark. Sadly, since it's the most commonly referenced set (every neopagan I've ever known could tell you all about Draeg and it's many properties, for instance) it is also the most maligned and misused. Got a new MA based on your supposed family heritage of Nordic/Germanic descent? Futhark. New DragonFaerieWiccaNeoDruidAlexandrian religion? Futhark.

ADL doesn't seem to recognize that any imagery of a "common" nature can and will be turned into a "heritage" or "pride" symbol. The tophat, playboy bunny, and pitchfork are common Chicago gang symbols, but if I get a playboy bunny tattoo it doesn't mean I'm automatically one of them. Same for Futhark. I doubt the futhark tie was put there to gain some kind of Pride affiliation.

**RegularJoe** · Posted On: 8/16/2007 6:17pm

Way over my head

**The Crack Taoist** · Posted On: 8/16/2007 10:51pm

Draeg? Google yields nothing except that it's a Danish word for a dredging hook.

What does this refer to Necroth?

**Necroth** · Posted On: 8/17/2007 8:03pm

Draeg is one of the Futhark runes. Also known as Dagaz and sometimes Druaz. Look up Dagaz, you'll find more info. And if you watch alot of movies, you'll also know a little something about "Thorn", which is sometimes represented as Dagaz, sometimes as Mannaz. Depends on what movie. (Off the top of my head, I'm seeing a horror movie...can you guess which one?)

Alot of NeoPagans use the Futhark set of runes because it's so proliferant and there's so much information around about it. Kind of like most Bullshidoka are ninja or Kempo greats. NeoPagans, especially the NeoDruids, FaerieWiccans, DragonWiccans, etc. are all pretty much BS artists of a low degree, who follow the classic path to religious enlightenment: search the internet for pagan information, buy some books by Silver Ravenclaw, be antisocial! Huzzah!

If you don't know much about NeoPagans, be glad. I must sadly admit that I have known too many NeoPagans, even dated a couple. I have an intimate knowledge of religious, philosophical and theologic bullshido.

**The Crack Taoist** · Posted On: 8/17/2007 8:18pm

Originally Posted by Necroth

Draeg is one of the Futhark runes. Also known as Dagaz and sometimes Druaz. Look up Dagaz, you'll find more info. And if you watch alot of movies, you'll also know a little something about "Thorn", which is sometimes represented as Dagaz, sometimes as Mannaz. Depends on what movie. (Off the top of my head, I'm seeing a horror movie...can you guess which one?)

Alot of NeoPagans use the Futhark set of runes because it's so proliferant and there's so much information around about it. Kind of like most Bullshidoka are ninja or Kempo greats. NeoPagans, especially the NeoDruids, FaerieWiccans, DragonWiccans, etc. are all pretty much BS artists of a low degree, who follow the classic path to religious enlightenment: search the internet for pagan information, buy some books by Silver Ravenclaw, be antisocial! Huzzah!

If you don't know much about NeoPagans, be glad. I must sadly admit that I have known too many NeoPagans, even dated a couple. I have an intimate knowledge of religious, philosophical and theologic bullshido.

Ah. You mean DAEG.. not Draeg... as in the Anglo-Saxon for Day.
I would expect a person with intimate knowledge to spell it correctly.

I would also expect a person with intimate knowledge of this sort of bullshido to connect
"Thorn" with it's traditional rune, Thurisaz. Not Dagaz or Mannaz.

I admit.. at this point I'm fairly skeptical with respect to your sincerity.

No offense.

**Necroth** · Posted On: 8/17/2007 9:07pm

Point taken, but you neglected to remember, I never claimed to be an expert on actual runes, merely on neopagan, theologic, and philosophical Bullshido. You are correct, thurisaz is thorn in elder Futhark. But, take a look at this and tell me which rune is first in the listing of "Thorn".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Marcomannic.PNG

From the Marcomannic runic set, a mixture of Futhark and Futhorc sets. Furthermore, Mannaz is represented as well, and the "d" symbology from Daeg, but nowhere do you see Thurisaz, the actual rune, in the listing for Thorn.

Next time, instead of "fishing" for someone to make a mistake, use your immense intelligence and say "Oh, he must mean Daeg. Maybe I should go run and play someplace else instead of baiting someone into a meaningless discussion about semantic runic representations", especially since it had very little to do with the topic of note, ie. how it correlates to Stav, or even the topic that I had been discussing/replying to, from Hedgehogey about "Pride" usages and how Stav could be pandering to hate groups. Furthermore, if you wish to attack my "sincerety" on the topic of runic knowledge, NeoPagans, or anything else, I'm fairly sure MABS is not the place and I'll be more than happy to meet you on a wonderful YMAS thread for the verbal fencing.

PS: You must not be very good at searching, as I found this:

http://wordswordswords.us/beowulfglossary.htm

With an entry for ge-draeg:

ge-dræg*, n., bearing, concourse, (noisy) company; as., 756. [dragan]

But, no offense.

**Bladesinger** · Posted On: 8/17/2007 9:23pm

Are we talking Eldar Futhark, Younger Futhark, or Anglo-Saxon Futhorc?

Also, long twig or short twig?

Though I think we're way over my head here, I only study runes so I can translate runestones on my own. Any of this magiky* stuff ain't really my thing.

dæg=dagaz, the former is just Anglo-Saxon, the latter Scandinavian, the rune is the same for both. (IIRC, dæg ends not with a g, but with a yogh, which I cant seem to make show up)

þorn=þurisaz, same here, though when yuo get into Old English/Old Norse, þ is thorn either way, IIRC.

There are some differences between Futhorc and Futhark, such as Futhorc contains 'kalc'(kk) and 'gar'(g), where Futhark(elder or younger) uses neither.

Oh, and I know I spelled 'magiky' rather stupidly. That was on purpose. Otherwise, aren't dead languages fun?