Posted On:8/15/2007 2:54pm
Style: Savate, Combatives(BJJ)
What's your guy's take on this?
Posted On:8/15/2007 4:19pm
As an exercise system it's probably about as good as low-impact yoga, but the claims of a 44-generation lineage have never been substantiated. IMO it was probably developed in the late 1980s, inspired by a New Age interpretation of ancient Scandinavian mysticism and by the ninjutsu craze.
The consensus among leading Western MA practitioners is that Stav is the most prominent example of WMA Bullshido.
Posted On:8/15/2007 4:41pm
Style: creonte on hiatus
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The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
Posted On:8/15/2007 4:44pm
When I click the link it tells me nothing was found
I got an axe to grind
Posted On:8/15/2007 5:56pm
The short answer is that Stav is a modern invention based
on a combination of three things...
1. Ivar's personal scandinavian heritage and childhood
2. Japanese bo-jitsu/jo-do
3. Runic theory and ceremonial magick as put forward by
individuals such as Guido Von List and (after WW2) Marby.
The notion of "runastadhur" or "runenyoga" is prominent
in post 1900 Germanic developments in occult practice, and
is justified by the "facts" (both of these are hard to verify)
a. standing in the shape of runestaves is "thaumaturgically
effective" (good luck proving or disproving that one!)
b. Icelandic children were traditionally taught the shapes
and order of their "letters" by having them "stand in the
There is absolutely nothing wrong with stav .. except that it's
not what it's advertised as.
If Ivar had just said "Odhinn gave me this in a dream!" the
esoteric and occult community would have nodded and he
would have been following the precedents put forward by
Guido Von List himself.
You can't really judge Stav as a "martial art" because it isn't a
It's a quasi-yogic neopagan synthesis tradition.
A school of magic basically. Nothing wrong with that persay...
it's a free planet.
No more cock-eyed than the local Wiccan coven.
But it's NOT a historical martial art, and really isn't much of a
modern invented martial art either.
let's talk about why fat-fu shall we?
Posted On:8/15/2007 6:53pm
Style: FMA, MT & BJJ
Taoist has t3h c0rr3ct.
This guy has been mocked over at swedish MA-forums as well, and they have lots and lots of rules about behaviour. (kinda like MAP)
Basically the problem is that it isn't marketed as Yoga, it's marketed as MA...
Posted On:8/15/2007 7:45pm
And while we are at it.... a truly authentic Viking/Scandinavian
art, whether it was a survival or a reconstruction.. (though how
would one would reconstruct it without the source texts the
usual WMA types work through?) would likely be based on spear
and shield... *especially* if it had a runic focus (since Odhinn's
signature weapon is, of course, Gungnir).
If you *really* want to research this further (and don't you
have better things to do with your time.. like.. oh masturbate to
porn you snagged off of cheggit?) google "Rune-Gild"
and order a stack of books from Runa-Raven Press.
That will give you an accurate read on what a genuine (and
honesly labeled) *reconstruction* of pre-Xstian runic mysticism
might have been like.. and also just how insanely unlikely it
would be for Ivar's advertsing to be true.
Ivar has an old family. An he has an old art... it's called Jo-Do.
The Way of the Stick.
Also he read some stuff (like many neopagan types do) about
the Armanen Order and set about with his newly minted
This is nothing new. von List did the same thing while lying
flat on his back in bed for months on end blindfolded recoverying
from cataract surgery. If he had done judo I suspect that would
have turned into "glimma" or it's souther germanic
Last edited by The Crack Taoist; 8/15/2007 7:50pm at .
Posted On:8/15/2007 8:23pm
Additonally, use of Runes, particularly the Wolfsangel and Tyr runes are one indication (though not the only ones, and taken in isolation are not positive identifiers) of neo-nazi/"aryan" supremacist affiliation.
It is these runes:
that are most commonly in use by white supremacist groups, although the ADL's explanations should be taken with a grain of salt, considering that they incorrectly identify black panther, moorish temple and black guerilla family symbols as well as non white supremacist skinhead symbols as racist.
Also it should be noted that non white supremacist asatru pagans often sport these symbols. It takes a discerning, trained eye to spot neo nazis, considering the number of false or misleading replies they will have ready to questioning of their symbology, including being told that these are "heritage pride", "german pride" or "american pride" symbols.
Nevertheless, an entire made up martial art based on imitating runes is not only objectively ridiculous in the historical department (just like the nazi's "aryan heritage" claims) but also comes dangerously close to being a cheap ploy to attract customers from "heritage" groups.
"The only important elements in any society
are the artistic and the criminal,
because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany
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It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
Posted On:8/15/2007 8:28pm
Glima would be a good case in point, in that it is a legitimate folk-wrestling style that (AFAIK) really does have ancient Scandinavian roots. You definitely don't want to let a Glima wrestler grab you by the belt. What it doesn't have is a lot of neoPagan re-interpretations; no reference to "rune stances" etc.
Perhaps Ivar Hafskjold was aware of the relationship between Bagua and the 8 trigrams of the I-Ching and decided to create a comparable system by devising quasi-martial applications for von List's "runenyoga" postures. In itself, this would have been an interesting exercise in invention and might possibly have evolved into a decent fighting art. Unfortunately, as with many people in similar positions during the '70s and '80s, he felt the need to claim an ancient heritage rather than honestly saying "I made this up, how do you like it?"
Posted On:8/15/2007 8:54pm
Style: MMA, functional JKD
Originally Posted by Hedgehogey
although the ADL's explanations should be taken with a grain of salt, considering that they incorrectly identify black panther, moorish temple and black guerilla family symbols as well as non white supremacist skinhead symbols as racist.
I think you (might) need to take a closer look at the rhetoric of Black Nationalist Groups.
Even moreso if you are not familiar with the events surrounding the death of Chauncey Bailey
"You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
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