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  1. ScyberMonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 6:04am


     Style: Way of the Void

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I appreciate the props. More than you know. I honestly did not expect such a good reception from it, I expected a bit more bitching.*chuckle*

    DM, I have an offer. In the event you would like to come see a class and get a real, unbiased opinion up here, I will gladly house you for the weekend, and even feed you...and as the belly should show, I'm an excellent cook. If this is at all possible, let me know. And I look forward, DM, to the day you are comfortable enough with me so I can spar with you in a not so alien environ...which was a perfectly apt way to put it.

    I will continue teaching, and you are absolutely correct, I have every intention of integrating everything I learned....that's the whole point to this. Wisdom from many sources, and I'm a damned idiot if I didn't learn from Thursday, and an even bigger one if I didn't pass that on.

    As for charging...well, that's a simple one. Equipment costs money. Weapons cost money. Kickpads and punching bags cost money. Hall rental costs money. Gas to get there, and take students to get personal EQ costs money. I DO work an IT job, and I do make a fairly ridiculous amount of money doing it, but that money is tied up by the expenses of living...and my girlfriends stupid car, which keeps breaking. 15 dollars for a 5 hour lesson, or fifty for a pack of four, isn't the kind of money someone charges when they are hoping to do anything other than MAYBE break even. Even ALL eq concerns aside, I live in AUSTRALIA....which has the highest rate of skin cancer, due to the big ol' hole in the ozone, so not renting a hall? Nuh - uh.

    And I'm a vampire, remember? I can't deal with the sunlight.*snicker*

    Though, in all seriousness, after 5 hours, hell, after -1- hour in this Ozly sunlight, I'm a freakin' lobster. So teaching without a hall is simply out of the question.

    I'm not even remotely interested in making money, and if I could win the lottery, build a training hall, and buy EQ for everyone I teach? I wouldn't charge a penny.

    Oh, and on a sidenote...I neeeeeever even remotely implied that training in the Grill is a good way to prepare for MMA Tournaments. Not even a little. Just to clear that up.

    Also, on a quasi related sidenote...I encourage my students to seek out and try other martial arts. The Grill is absolutely not for everyone, and if someone can get what they want in a different, safer environment, then I would prefer they be there, getting what they were really after. The Grill appeals to a certain kind of person, and for that kind of person, other Martial Arts just don't cut the cheesecake.

    Anyway, thanks again! And should DM post the videos of Big Jim tossing me around like a little girl, well...I promise I am more enthused to see them than you.*chuckle*
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 6:29am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    I will continue teaching, and you are absolutely correct, I have every intention of integrating everything I learned....that's the whole point to this. Wisdom from many sources, and I'm a damned idiot if I didn't learn from Thursday, and an even bigger one if I didn't pass that on.
    This isn't a good idea. A one day course correction and incorporation equals failure.
    As for charging...well, that's a simple one. Equipment costs money. Weapons cost money. Kickpads and punching bags cost money. Hall rental costs money. Gas to get there, and take students to get personal EQ costs money. I DO work an IT job, and I do make a fairly ridiculous amount of money doing it, but that money is tied up by the expenses of living...and my girlfriends stupid car, which keeps breaking. 15 dollars for a 5 hour lesson, or fifty for a pack of four, isn't the kind of money someone charges when they are hoping to do anything other than MAYBE break even. Even ALL eq concerns aside, I live in AUSTRALIA....which has the highest rate of skin cancer, due to the big ol' hole in the ozone, so not renting a hall? Nuh - uh.
    Yes but still charging when you aren't trained properly is dishonest regardless of the cost.

    Oh, and on a sidenote...I neeeeeever even remotely implied that training in the Grill is a good way to prepare for MMA Tournaments. Not even a little. Just to clear that up.
    Deadmeat clarified that is what he is experienced in so that is what he is critiquing. The rest of us are saying you shouldn't be teaching Self defense either.

    Also, on a quasi related sidenote...I encourage my students to seek out and try other martial arts. The Grill is absolutely not for everyone, and if someone can get what they want in a different, safer environment, then I would prefer they be there, getting what they were really after. The Grill appeals to a certain kind of person, and for that kind of person, other Martial Arts just don't cut the cheesecake.
    This goes back to what you charge. If they have no clue your skill is poor you are stealing money from them.

    Props on showing up but wow, I'm kind of wishing you had of backed out now. What you are talking about now is what we call crappling. Adding seminars to poor basics is a very bad idea.

    In all reality what deadmeat has done can't even count as a seminar.

    Props deadmeat for trying to educate. Props to your buddies for taking time out of their training to help a noob.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 9/02/2007 6:36am at .
  3. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 7:44pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    I appreciate the props. More than you know. I honestly did not expect such a good reception from it, I expected a bit more bitching.*chuckle*
    It's very much as I told you on the day, mate. The forum members will appreciate the fact that you are willing to represent your claims in person. I doubted that they would agree with you, but at least they'll respect you for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    DM, I have an offer. In the event you would like to come see a class and get a real, unbiased opinion up here, I will gladly house you for the weekend, and even feed you...and as the belly should show, I'm an excellent cook. If this is at all possible, let me know. And I look forward, DM, to the day you are comfortable enough with me so I can spar with you in a not so alien environ...which was a perfectly apt way to put it.
    MAte, I appreciate the offer. To be completly honest, I don't see myself having enough time to make such a trip at any stage this year, due to my unfortunately hectic schedule. However, given adequate time (i.e. if things settle down in the new year) I would definitely consider it. As I stipulated earlier, I don't feel I am qualified to comment about anything other than what I personally am knowledgable about, but perhaps someone from the Birsbane area, with knowledge of RBSD (forgive me for using a term to categorise what you do, but that's the closest analogue I can think of) might take you up on the offer and observe a class. That seems like the next logical step in this whole process.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    I will continue teaching, and you are absolutely correct, I have every intention of integrating everything I learned....that's the whole point to this. Wisdom from many sources, and I'm a damned idiot if I didn't learn from Thursday, and an even bigger one if I didn't pass that on.
    That's what I thought you would say. I don't really have any comment to add at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    As for charging...well, that's a simple one. Equipment costs money. Weapons cost money. Kickpads and punching bags cost money. Hall rental costs money. Gas to get there, and take students to get personal EQ costs money. I DO work an IT job, and I do make a fairly ridiculous amount of money doing it, but that money is tied up by the expenses of living...and my girlfriends stupid car, which keeps breaking. 15 dollars for a 5 hour lesson, or fifty for a pack of four, isn't the kind of money someone charges when they are hoping to do anything other than MAYBE break even. Even ALL eq concerns aside, I live in AUSTRALIA....which has the highest rate of skin cancer, due to the big ol' hole in the ozone, so not renting a hall? Nuh - uh.


    And I'm a vampire, remember? I can't deal with the sunlight.*snicker*

    Though, in all seriousness, after 5 hours, hell, after -1- hour in this Ozly sunlight, I'm a freakin' lobster. So teaching without a hall is simply out of the question.

    I'm not even remotely interested in making money, and if I could win the lottery, build a training hall, and buy EQ for everyone I teach? I wouldn't charge a penny.
    I can see where you are coming from on this point. If you are not profiting from giving your lessons, that might mitigates things to a slight degree, but will not dispel the concerns being raised, as I'm sure you are aware. I, probably more than anyone else, will wholeheartedly agree that safety concerns are paramount - sun safety as well as safety in training methods. You did tell me that you teach the Grill participants how to fall and roll, but because I did not see you demo any specific techniques, I can't make any further comment on that. I'm sure you'd agree that the ability to receive a technique correctly, in such a way as to completelky minimise the risk of injury, is a vital aspect of training - arguably of the utmost importance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    Oh, and on a sidenote...I neeeeeever even remotely implied that training in the Grill is a good way to prepare for MMA Tournaments. Not even a little. Just to clear that up.
    You wrote this on the 15 of August:
    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    I'm looking around on Google, have been since I posted, but, CHAOTIC, I am having a bit of a time finding any MMA tournaments. I could simply be looking in the wrong place.
    The issue of you personally entering into MMA matches to prove your techniques in a fully resisting environment was raised early on in the thread. Originally, that is how I became involved in this topic - to inform you that I could put you in touch with promoters who run MMA events at amateur and professional level if you wanted to participate, and that you could also come train at my club if you wanted to.

    In relation to grill training preparing people for MMA matches, what I was trying to convey was that the training you appear to be giving (again I stress that I did not observe you teaching a class so I can't make a valid critique) would not in my opinion meet the requirements of MMA competition. The reason i made the references to MMA is that it is the only aspect from which I feel that I am qualified to express an educated opinion. I am by no means an expert, but it is the area in which my knowledge base is the largest, and therefore the area from which I would be best advised to make claims. I'm pretty sure you can agree with me from that perspective. It Is Fake expressed the sentiment perfectly, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    Also, on a quasi related sidenote...I encourage my students to seek out and try other martial arts. The Grill is absolutely not for everyone, and if someone can get what they want in a different, safer environment, then I would prefer they be there, getting what they were really after. The Grill appeals to a certain kind of person, and for that kind of person, other Martial Arts just don't cut the cheesecake.
    I can accept and understand what you are saying, but if that is the case, I would suggest that perhaps a sound prerequisite for admission into the Grill would be a certain degree of training in a recognised system incorporating at least basic Ukemi, and striking. That is my personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    Anyway, thanks again! And should DM post the videos of Big Jim tossing me around like a little girl, well...I promise I am more enthused to see them than you.*chuckle*
    The spar you and I had should have been captured, but I'm not sure about the grappling we did at the start, as Lance was still sussing out the camera function on his Nokia. Apparently it was working fine by the time Jim demonstrated with you, and I personally recorded you sparring Lance. I think that the Big Jim videos will be more for entertainment value, much like the clips of Yoshi throwing me, but the primary clips of interest for the "investigation" will come down to the sparring you and I did, and the sparring between yourself and Lance (as that lasted a complete round). The stuff with Lance will be a good benchmark, because I was fairly passive, whereas Lance is more forthright in pressing the attack, so the sparring lasted longer and was of greater intensity. I also got footage of Lance sparring Jim which should look pretty good, once again for enterainment purposes.

    Lastly, I asked Big Jim about his opinion, as he is experienced in many different styles of fighing - Boxing, Wrestling, Submission Wrestling, BJJ, Muay thai, Gung Fu (Tong Long, and _ing _un to be specific), among others. His view is that you are "... a good guy, but a little misguided. Not instructor level, but with enough toughness and potential to get good if he trains at a good gym." Make of that what you will. I'll hopefully be posting the vids tonight, and after that i don't really have much to add.

    Thanks again. I do appreciate your conduct throughout this whole thing.
    Last edited by Deadmeat; 9/15/2007 4:08am at .
  4. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 8:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Definitely props to you Monk for showing. I would implore you to take the advice offered here and stop teaching though, as you clearly aren't in a position to pass on anything at the moment.

    Case in point: http://www.musashisbarandgrill.com/g...adoufirsty.swf

    You show a complete lack of control in throwing that girl, and she bangs her head quite hard. You didn't seem to notice this however, and instead of pointing out to her a correct and safe way to fall, you actually throw her again in exactly the same fashion... all the while grinning like a lunatic. Not only would any decent, responsible instructor not do that, he'd have taught basic falling technique before any kind of throwing took place. You're irresponsible, and what's worse you seemed to relish dominating a total beginner.

    Regardless of Deadmeat's assesment of your personality, (you may be a nice guy... but even complete cunts tend to be nice to people who can kick the **** out of them), the above video, and others, demonstrate that you are certainly not fit to teach right now.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 9/02/2007 9:10pm at .
  5. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 8:58pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Monk if you continue to 'teach" after seeing that you yourself still need to be trained first then that is wrong.

    And as for the charging of fees ...I understand that you have expenses that need to be covered. My instructor charges like 25.00 a month. Only because he doesn't do this for a living, he has taught for 30 + yrs and says he wants to think of it more as a type of club than a business.

    But the major difference is that he knows what he is doing where as you don't.

    I'm all for people trying to help others with learning MA or self defense, but only if the person that is teaching knows what they are doing.

    Would it be fair to an individual if I looked at a book and saw a couple of moves in it and then opened a school and charged them to learn the stuff that I don't even really know or even fully understand...NO

    It would not be fair and it would even be dangerous.

    Monk...I will say this ...I will give you all the credit in the world for showing up to meet DM and spar. You have already taken a major step in learning right there. Not many so called instructors would have even done that.

    But .....for you to go back to teaching before being (for lack of a better term) certified is just plain dumb. This is no more than picking up a couple of things from a book and trying to teach them.

    Now I know we blitz you alot here but you have to understand that we do this to try and help you become a true instructor and to also protect your "students" from harm.
  6. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2007 10:00pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Update: I most likely won't be getting the vids from Lance tonight, as I won't be attending training tonight. My rib is too sore. Sorry for the delays, but the vids don't show anything other than the fact that Monk attended. and displays an unorthodox style anyway.

    I will post the clips as soon as I am able - thanks for your patience everyone.
  7. Chaotic is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 6:07am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmeat
    Update: I most likely won't be getting the vids from Lance tonight, as I won't be attending training tonight. My rib is too sore. Sorry for the delays, but the vids don't show anything other than the fact that Monk attended. and displays an unorthodox style anyway.

    I will post the clips as soon as I am able - thanks for your patience everyone.
    Hey Deadmeat,

    Good job on describing the meet up. It sounds like you had some great people there to train with. Your observations and insight seem to confirm a lot of the speculation about the Grill.

    From a completely outside Internet view it looks like Monk likes the sparring and contact, but lacks experience in a structured environment. It took me a long time to relax when sparring and I always noticed that people who weren't quite used to it would either throw really hard, tense haymakers (and usually gas quickly) or be really gunshy and do bad things like turn their heads or backpeddle.

    I don't think there is any question that the members of the Grill aren't being enthusiastic about their training there. It just seems like they are doing it without a lot of regard for safety or proper instruction. This seems dangerous to me. I separated a training partners shoulder when doing hip throws once at my last gym, and it wasn't because I was supremely bad ass or anything. I was a sloppy thrower and he was sloppy at Ukemi. This was in a very structured environment with an excellent Judo and grappling coach. It is easy enough to get hurt even with good safety procedures.

    Speaking of injuries, was the rib injury from Yoshi's knee in the last throw in the video you posted? It looked painful.

    And lastly, off topic, what kind of guitar did you pick up the other week? I dusted off my Gibson Les Paul after months of neglect from the move to Oz and reminded myself of how much I suck.

    :headbang:
  8. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 6:42am


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic
    Hey Deadmeat,

    Good job on describing the meet up. It sounds like you had some great people there to train with. Your observations and insight seem to confirm a lot of the speculation about the Grill.

    From a completely outside Internet view it looks like Monk likes the sparring and contact, but lacks experience in a structured environment. It took me a long time to relax when sparring and I always noticed that people who weren't quite used to it would either throw really hard, tense haymakers (and usually gas quickly) or be really gunshy and do bad things like turn their heads or backpeddle.
    Well said. I agree. I actually tend to backpedal a little too much myself, but it works well if you shoot in while they are chasing you. When doing hands only, it's a bad habit on my part, but hey, we're all improving day by day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic
    I don't think there is any question that the members of the Grill aren't being enthusiastic about their training there. It just seems like they are doing it without a lot of regard for safety or proper instruction. This seems dangerous to me. I separated a training partners shoulder when doing hip throws once at my last gym, and it wasn't because I was supremely bad ass or anything. I was a sloppy thrower and he was sloppy at Ukemi. This was in a very structured environment with an excellent Judo and grappling coach. It is easy enough to get hurt even with good safety procedures.
    True that. Similar thing happened to a guy at my club with his knee/ACL earlier this year. Unpleasant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic
    Speaking of injuries, was the rib injury from Yoshi's knee in the last throw in the video you posted? It looked painful.
    Yep. It wasn't exactly nice, but I got my breath back after about a minute or so. Waited a bit for good measure, held pads for a round, then did three or four rounds I think - alternating between boxing and kickboxing. It's the only way I can actually hold my own with Yoshi, as he has no guard to speak of. he can hit pretty hard, but his guard is sloppy. As soon as any form of grappling/clinching is allowed, it's like I'm fighting a mountain. But it's educational at least, and generally Yoshi holds back. The problem with the throws in the video is that I wasn't responding as I normally would... I was taking different grips, and standing different so Yoshi could show Jim how he would react in different situations.

    The next day my ribs were sore, day after not so bad. Last night I went for a run, and today they hurt like hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic
    And lastly, off topic, what kind of guitar did you pick up the other week? I dusted off my Gibson Les Paul after months of neglect from the move to Oz and reminded myself of how much I suck.

    :headbang:
    Oooh nice. I bought an Ibanez RG 350ex. Plays like a dream. I couldn't get the hang of the Gibsons - they don't quite gel with my playing style.
  9. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 8:28am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Holy shiiiiiiiiiit! What is wrong with this guy?? First, the poor girls really need to just attend a good women's self def class - poor things with their hands clutching their thighs and not running. Second, what is the thigh slapping he does when he bows? Tic disorder possibly. Next, what an abject sense of instructor-student morality this idiot has! Someone, earlier on this thread, said something about how so many had tried their own thing before and done it so much better. Absolutely correct. Monk, you are a crazy, violent bastard who I would like to have come visit our dojang. I.e.: I have a couple of students and instructors who would like to teach you a lesson or two. Don't worry, they're smaller than you so you will most likely be bruised, battered and bitten, but no lasting injury.:XXbuzzsaw:ingun:
    If you had been teaching these poor girls for 3 or 4 hours (I recall ref to 5 hr. classes) why didn't they have their hands somewhere other than on their thighs? You must be a far shittier instructor than you like to give yourself credit for being. And, if they hadn't gotten that part yet (although they seemed to be brunettes) why did you feel the need to humiliate them and probably make them more fearful of learning truly useful self-defense?
    The strange (sometimes Japanese, sometimes not) name thing is baffling, yet amusing. What is wrong with using one's own name? Secret society ****? Take- away- their- identity- cult- ****? Vampire fetish ****? OK I have a new name for you. No longer will you be known as ScyberMonk, from now on, grasshopper, you will be known as Assholeo.
    Last edited by saman; 9/03/2007 8:31am at .
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2007 10:02am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic
    Hey Deadmeat,

    Good job on describing the meet up. It sounds like you had some great people there to train with. Your observations and insight seem to confirm a lot of the speculation about the Grill.

    From a completely outside Internet view it looks like Monk likes the sparring and contact, but lacks experience in a structured environment. It took me a long time to relax when sparring and I always noticed that people who weren't quite used to it would either throw really hard, tense haymakers (and usually gas quickly) or be really gunshy and do bad things like turn their heads or backpeddle.
    Exactly why he shouldn't be teaching. Nothing wrong with being gun shy while you are training. If you are teaching it shouldn't be a noticable problem if one at all.

    I don't think there is any question that the members of the Grill aren't being enthusiastic about their training there. It just seems like they are doing it without a lot of regard for safety or proper instruction. This seems dangerous to me. I separated a training partners shoulder when doing hip throws once at my last gym, and it wasn't because I was supremely bad ass or anything. I was a sloppy thrower and he was sloppy at Ukemi. This was in a very structured environment with an excellent Judo and grappling coach. It is easy enough to get hurt even with good safety procedures.
    Good points except, poor teacher equals poor students. The lack of enthusiasm, in the vids, may come from being hurt.

    I've seen it happen. Someone gets hurt, by an improper technique, they train improperly because they are scared. That falls right back in the teachers lap.

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