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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 4:28pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hidden in Forms

    People who say this need to be shot. I'm sorry they do. If you need a book, code-breakers, or a translator for your forms you are larping.

    I just read that on another board I frequent. You can't get the flavor by looking at videos of ***** style. The secrets are hidden in the form.

    I'm sorry if you can't look at a form and tell what a large majority of the techniques are something is wrong. No this doesn't mean you don't need help practicing said from but, I should be able to tell the "flavor" of what is being performed.
  2. Ronin.74 is offline

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 5:01pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can generally see what is going on in a form 99% of the time. People who "discover" hidden techniques in a form are basically fishing for something to compensate for the fact that what they are learning is lacking in some area.

    On the rare ocassion that I have to ask my Shifu what the purpose of a certain move is in a form it's usually because I've been doing the motion wrong to begin with which is why I couldn't see the application before.
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 6:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, there are many "hidden" applications in forms. "hidden" generally means someone forgot the application but still does the form for it. Later someone notices the methods, maybe in someone elses style and then "rediscovers it" in their own. Wing Chun forms are supposed to cover the entire range of combat movement, but short of that, atleast the entire range of WC. Some single movements have many applications due to redundancy.

    Then also there may be secrets that are applications only given to "special" students that earn it. WT is not big on this, but we do have many movements that require steps to get to, so you may have the form of it, but then later be given a new aplication. The Students then thinks, "WoW, a hiden secret I was practicing a long time all ready".

    The WT ground fighting was constructed into training sets in the 1980's and 90's. Since it was created from WT movements found in the forms, one could say it was always there waiting to be discovered. But in truth only the application itself holds the secret to its own usage, and the training set for it must be actually TRAINED regularly or the useage of the movement is STILL A SECRET!

    So the techniques are contained in three places, Forms, driills, and applications. If you forget the technique or combo in one spot, atleast you have two other lexicons to draw from, to remember all the secrets.

    example: The indoor pak in Chum Kiu is often seen as an "arm break". Its also a simple isometric exercise pushing the elbow (as a tan) against the pak to strengthing both, as wiell as it being the motion of a neck crank. The motion from one pak to the other, with tan switching to pak, is the motion of an arm lock. There are some others here too. So which one is the secret? I one you didn't know before hand!

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  4. meataxe is offline
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    International Man of Pancakes

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 6:50pm


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there are "elements" of techniques in forms. Practicing the form with the knowledge of the element should be helping you execute that element and techniques based on that element.

    I do not believe you can decode a form to get a "secret", "hidden" or "forgotten" technique. And forms will, of course, be useless in the martial sense unless you actively train martial aspects of your art.
    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
    - Voltaire
  5. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 10:11pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is nothing hidden in forms. Forms are merely tools for teaching movements to a group of students at one time. Much like one would see in the military. They should be less than 10% of the time spent training, perhaps a warmup before conditioning, technique practice/drills, and sparring. Anyone who blabbers about hidden techniques in forms needs to pull thier head out of thier ass and take a good look around them. If its being taught as hidden in the form, then the instructor is probably talking out thier ass because they didn't learn all the ranges that CMA are supposed to cover: striking, kick, locking, and throwing.
  6. Scott Larson is offline
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    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 10:21pm


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems like saying applications are hidden in forms can be an easy cop out. Someone can say that, and easily be lying.

    However, I feel that sometimes movements in forms have less obvious applications.
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  7. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 11:48pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nothing is really hidden in the forms. Its all up to a persons interpritation of it.

    when someone comes up with a form that has a specific bunkai to it and they teach it to someone else, that person may forget what they were learned and then go back and make something up to fill in the gaps.

    Then they can say pretty much whatever they want. If they keep the mystery of their art alive it keeps people coming back for more code breaking.
  8. NJM is offline
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    Putting the "ow" back in "flowery technique"

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2007 11:53pm


     Style: CMA, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    There is nothing hidden in forms. Forms are merely tools for teaching movements to a group of students at one time. Much like one would see in the military. They should be less than 10% of the time spent training, perhaps a warmup before conditioning, technique practice/drills, and sparring. Anyone who blabbers about hidden techniques in forms needs to pull thier head out of thier ass and take a good look around them. If its being taught as hidden in the form, then the instructor is probably talking out thier ass because they didn't learn all the ranges that CMA are supposed to cover: striking, kick, locking, and throwing.
    I agree with you. If there are "inexplicables" in the forms, there is a problem.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 12:55am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    There is nothing hidden in forms. Forms are merely tools for teaching movements to a group of students at one time. Much like one would see in the military. They should be less than 10% of the time spent training, perhaps a warmup before conditioning, technique practice/drills, and sparring. Anyone who blabbers about hidden techniques in forms needs to pull thier head out of thier ass and take a good look around them. If its being taught as hidden in the form, then the instructor is probably talking out thier ass because they didn't learn all the ranges that CMA are supposed to cover: striking, kick, locking, and throwing.
    Exactly how I feel. Hidden my ass. That is just away to keep people paying. Also, a way to keep students in line.

    Hoho you don't know the "real" application for that form. If you continue you will never learn said technique, form, application blah blah blah.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 12:56am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hui_Xiu
    It seems like saying applications are hidden in forms can be an easy cop out. Someone can say that, and easily be lying.

    However, I feel that sometimes movements in forms have less obvious applications.
    Less obvious is not the same as hidden.
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