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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 1:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    Check this out:

    http://www.thearma.org/essays/WurmTandC.html

    It's a translation with commentary and with the original plates of a text on German Wrestling.

    Seems to have a lot in common with freestyle wrestling... lots of throws and trips and takedowns typical in freestyle.

    For example Plate 8.



    Suplex anyone?

    Again, this is from ARMA.
    *Gasp!* Uchimata!!!

    http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/11b.jpg

    And the guy doing this Hane/Harai-Goshi-looking thing must be Russian!!! He's grabbing the belt!!!

    http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/09a.jpg

    Jokes aside, that manuscript is pretty cool.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. nzeman is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 1:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: WMA, Suio Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I haven't seen that manuscript yet, it is pretty nice, although it would take an experienced wrestler or grappler to make better sense of it than me. It appears that most wrestling techniques are somewhat universal in a sense, depending on context.

    I would argue that the Asian dominance in traditional martial arts is a modern preconception, and that Europeans had systems just as sophisticated and effective without any influence from the East. One thing I do not find in any Western Martial Art is any kind of "mysticism" or talk about magic powers, chi balls, or anything like it. There is also no talk of super-secret deadly strikes either (although some use and illustration of pressure points seems to be common).
  3. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 2:09pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    *Gasp!* Uchimata!!!

    http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/11b.jpg

    And the guy doing this Hane/Harai-Goshi-looking thing must be Russian!!! He's grabbing the belt!!!

    http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/09a.jpg

    Jokes aside, that manuscript is pretty cool.
    LOL, no ****.

    Quote Originally Posted by nzeman
    I haven't seen that manuscript yet, it is pretty nice, although it would take an experienced wrestler or grappler to make better sense of it than me. It appears that most wrestling techniques are somewhat universal in a sense, depending on context.
    I'm not experienced by any means.

    Almost 1 year wrestling, a couple months striking (unless you want to count shotokan karate and isshinryu karate I did too, lol), something like 2-3 months of Aikido, and a shitload of reading about/visualizing submission techniques and then joking around during wrestling practice and putting friends in armbars and facelocks.

    I'm not a good fighter by any means, hell, I'm not even a good wrestler by any means. I'm going to be a junior in high school, and most wrestlers that are also juniors usually have at least 3 years of experience.

    But I still *know* plenty of takedowns (just that I haven't had enough time to go completely crazy drilling them) and a decent amount of submissions.

    But even my *extremely* limited experience has helped me make more sense of things...

    I'd suggest you go join a BJJ or Judo Club. Clubs are cheap, and you can get some good instruction on basic takedowns and coaching when you begin to drill them.

    I would argue that the Asian dominance in traditional martial arts is a modern preconception, and that Europeans had systems just as sophisticated and effective without any influence from the East. One thing I do not find in any Western Martial Art is any kind of "mysticism" or talk about magic powers, chi balls, or anything like it. There is also no talk of super-secret deadly strikes either (although some use and illustration of pressure points seems to be common).
    A lot of people would argue with you.

    The majority of Eastern MAs, with the exception of Muay Thai and Judo, are pretty horrible.

    If you get a guy that trains karate or TKD with enough aliveness, they'll be good too (lil' Cro Cop), but this is not usually the case.

    On the other hand, pretty much ALL Western MAs, such as Sambo, Boxing, Kickboxing, Greco-Roman & Freestyle Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, Savate, and others all produce extremely skilled and competent fighters.

    Anybody remember Gerard Gordeau? He pretty much was the dominant striker in the first UFC, and he was a savateur.

    Andrei Arlovski, Fedor Emelianenko, Cro Cop, Kazushi Sakuraba, Dan Henderson, Josh Barnett, Randy Couture, Matt Serra, and Sean Sherk are but a few of the greatest fighters ever whose main, base, martial art is a western martial art.

    EDIT: Even Bruce Lee switched from Wing Chun to training more boxing and wrestling when he formed his so-called "concept martial art," or JKD.
    Last edited by krazy kaju; 8/16/2007 2:29pm at .
  4. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 2:13pm

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is one of my favorite links on the subject:

    http://www.paulushectormair.com/CQC_PHM.htm
  5. Tyrsmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 2:24pm


     Style: Fiore

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    :toothy12: :toothy12: :toothy12: :toothy12:

    Yeah bitches, WMA representin in the House.

    okay enough with the Jackassery,
    but seriously I'm glad to find this, I only wish I seen sooner.

    Also Misanthropic you were fuckin awesome.

    You know I wondered if you might've had anything to do with Tattershall.

    By the way have you meant one Roger Siggs, I hear theres going to be a seminar going on in Chicago in October and I was thinking of attending. I hear he's teaching it.
  6. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 2:27pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
    This is one of my favorite links on the subject:

    http://www.paulushectormair.com/CQC_PHM.htm
    Yeah, that's some tight stuff you got there.

    I just hate how hard it is to decipher what some of the medieval/renaissance pictures are showing.
  7. nzeman is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 3:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: WMA, Suio Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I meant by the Asian dominance in TMA was not their dominance in reality, but only that when people think of martial arts they think Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan, or possibly Phillipino or Thai, and are incredulous about European styles. I blame it on the movies.

    By the way, that Mair article is great, I had no idea he had such a developed grappling/wrestling section. I generally focus on the Italian material, but this stuff is really great. It is difficult to figure out what the manuscripts are saying, and illustrating, that's why there are people devoted to researching it and trying to re-create it. There are always arguments within various groups about interpretations.
  8. misanthropic777 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 5:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrsmann
    :toothy12: :toothy12: :toothy12: :toothy12:

    Yeah bitches, WMA representin in the House.

    okay enough with the Jackassery,
    but seriously I'm glad to find this, I only wish I seen sooner.

    Also Misanthropic you were fuckin awesome.

    You know I wondered if you might've had anything to do with Tattershall.
    I head up the Tattershall group in Phoenix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrsmann
    By the way have you meant one Roger Siggs, I hear theres going to be a seminar going on in Chicago in October and I was thinking of attending. I hear he's teaching it.
    I trained on and off out here with Roger the past few years until he moved to Denver last spring. He's teaching at WMAW, as are 4 or 5 other TSD guys, and I'll be attending. Pete Kautz, whose website the OP started this thread about, is teaching too.
  9. misanthropic777 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 5:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nzeman
    What I meant by the Asian dominance in TMA was not their dominance in reality, but only that when people think of martial arts they think Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan, or possibly Phillipino or Thai, and are incredulous about European styles. I blame it on the movies.

    By the way, that Mair article is great, I had no idea he had such a developed grappling/wrestling section. I generally focus on the Italian material, but this stuff is really great. It is difficult to figure out what the manuscripts are saying, and illustrating, that's why there are people devoted to researching it and trying to re-create it. There are always arguments within various groups about interpretations.
    There's a greater wealth of grappling material in the German tradition than in the Italian. I just did a short class on this wrestling text a little while ago - good stuff.
  10. RegularJoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 5:48pm


     Style: Savate, Combatives(BJJ)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is there seemingly a lapel grab in EVERY martial art? I mean, was there a ton of lapel-grabbing going on back in the day?
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