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  1. misanthropic777 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/15/2007 4:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by stjohnwayne
    What are some good resources on Fiore's abrazare?
    You can find translations of portions of all three manuscripts here:

    http://www.the-exiles.org/FioreProject/Project.htm

    The Getty and Pisani-Dossi translations both include the wrestling section.
  2. nzeman is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/15/2007 4:27pm

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    A lot of the grappline tecnniques are expanded upon in the Daga (dagger) sections as well, so if you are looking for hand to hand references you will also want to look through the dagger plays as well. The Exiles are one of the best groups working on the hand to hand aspects of Fiore's art, since most of the rest of us sword geeks are spending too much time on the weapons part of things. Fiore uses a lot of grappling in his weapons arts, and I think having various other martial artists becoming interested in looking at his grappling plays would be great!
  3. misanthropic777 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/15/2007 4:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by nzeman
    A lot of the grappline tecnniques are expanded upon in the Daga (dagger) sections as well, so if you are looking for hand to hand references you will also want to look through the dagger plays as well. The Exiles are one of the best groups working on the hand to hand aspects of Fiore's art, since most of the rest of us sword geeks are spending too much time on the weapons part of things. Fiore uses a lot of grappling in his weapons arts, and I think having various other martial artists becoming interested in looking at his grappling plays would be great!
    Good point - do work through the text in order, starting with the wrestling and then the dagger work. Each section sbuilds on the concepts presented in earlier ones, and we all tend to focus on the cool sword stuff too much - we went back to the wrestling again last night because some of the folks needed work on some fundamentals.
  4. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/15/2007 7:18pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

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    I can tell you from personal experience it's worked just fine against my non compliant self.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  5. nzeman is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/15/2007 7:29pm

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     Style: WMA, Suio Ryu

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    Actually from what I understand the German Wrestling in that video is not traditional Medieval wrestling but a composite of modern and surviving techniques from manuscripts. So I guess it will work as well as modern wrestling.
  6. RegularJoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 9:34am


     Style: Savate, Combatives(BJJ)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPopp
    Sweet. I should go learn it so I can flip a guy over my knee, catch him on my back and do a set of lunges with him kicking and screaming across my shoulders.

    ROFL!
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 10:12am

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    Many people fail to realize a lot of the ARMA guys are either legit academians and researchers and/or non-bullshit martial artists (usually both.) What they do may not be 100% exact of what used to be done in Medieval Europe, but that doesn't mean it's LARPing crap, inacurate or Stav :tongue6:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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  8. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 10:36am


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    Similarity of Kampfringen to Wrestling & Jujitsu

    Quote Originally Posted by nzeman
    You won't see anyone jumping into MMA billing themselves as "German Kampfringen" stylists anytime soon, if at all. I would hope someday that some athlete with enough skill can claim that he uses some German Medieval or Italian Abrazare (grappling) techniques in a major competition. That would be great, but honestly, if somebody gave you a BJJ manual with everything the Master wanted to teach you and you needed to know, how long would it take you to become good at it without his instruction? 20 years of dedicated work, trying to figure out all those little things that an instructor can show you but that can't really be imparted with text and images?
    It could be feasible.

    I really see no reason why a top-level mixed-martial artist would claim they do Kampfringen or Abrazare, but someone who has a background knowledge in any style of grappling could much easier recreate a historical form of grappling then a non-grappler.

    There are only so many feasible takedowns and throws.

    From what I've seen in some of the medieval texts I've looked through, a lot of there takedowns correspond with standard wrestling/judo/jujitsu takedowns, and the joint locks they use are generally similar to traditional Japanese jujitsu.

    In fact, a mix of freestyle wrestling takedowns with typical trad jujitsu joint locks would be the best background from what I've seen for studying kampfringen.

    Examples:

    Codex Wallerstein, pg 52:
    Standing Keylock

    The example above is something you might see in a traditional Japanese jujitsu dojo. Interesting enough, there is also a move like this in Aikido (which is an offshoot of jujitsu) where you pin your opponent to the ground with a keylock at the end.

    Codex Wallerstein, pg 39 :
    Single Leg Takedown with Inside Trip

    A typical single-leg takedown as seen in freestyle wrestling and no-gi submission grappling. It finnishes with a trip.

    Codex Wallerstein, pg 27:
    Arm Throw or Standing Armlock?

    Unfortunately, I am not able to read medieval German, so I cannot tell 100% what this is.

    However, you can either make it into a set up for an arm throw or a standing armlock. It looks more like an armlock but who knows.

    Goliath, pg 184:
    Another Standing Keylock

    Another standing keylock, just demonstrated in 'Goliath' this time.

    Goliath, pg 194:
    Typical Aikido/Jujitsu Wristlock

    A typical wristlock/disarming method as found in Aikido and Traditional Japanese Jujitsu.

    Goliath, pg 232:
    Wrestling Greco-Roman Style

    Self explanatory.

    Goliath, pg 243:
    High-Crotch Takedown

    A variant of the High-Crotch Takedown. Looks like you could do a suplex-like throw from that position, or trip the other leg from the outside.





    As you can see, a lot of these movements are seen in other martial arts, mostly in wrestling, judo, and [traditional] jujitsu. If you look closely at just the unarmed techniques of either the Codex Wallerstein or Goliath, you will see double-leg takedowns, throws, single-leg takedowns, and variations. Also, some standing joint-locks, typical of Traditional Japanese Jujitsu can be found. Some wristlocks can also be found in the disarming techniques, which are very typical of Jujitsu and Aikido.

    I'm guessing that Medieval Unarmed Combat and Japanese Jujitsu have so much in common mainly due to the reason that they formed for the same reason: soldiers, whether they be knights, samurais, or commoners, needed a way to disarm and disable their opponents who were often protected in armor. Strikes weren't going to work, and the armor was too bulky to grapple on the ground, so there were many standing arm and wristlocks, and many throws and tripping takedowns.

    Notably, if you look at the 'Self Defense' techniques that the Gracies teach, they are also extremely similar, using some similar armlocks and throws.

    So what I'm saying is that someone who has a background in wrestling or jujitsu (or both, ideally) could much more easily recreate some forms of medieval grappling then others, using texts. Wrestlers wouldn't have to spend time learning the single-leg takedown by themselves, which seems to be popular in medieval texts, because they've already been coached through it. On the other hand, jujitsu practitioners wouldn't have to be coached on the various standing armlocks, wristlocks, and keylocks which also seem to be common in medieval martial art texts, since jujitsu practitioners already have been coached on how to perform them properly.

    NOTE: I used the images from the Codex Wallerstein and Goliath from The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts, or ARMA. You can find a link to their website on the side of the homepage of Bullshido.net. You can go to their website at thearma.org and you can see the manuals they have up at thearma.org/manuals.htm.
    Last edited by krazy kaju; 8/16/2007 10:47am at .
  9. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 11:52am


     Style: In Hiatus

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    Check this out:

    http://www.thearma.org/essays/WurmTandC.html

    It's a translation with commentary and with the original plates of a text on German Wrestling.

    Seems to have a lot in common with freestyle wrestling... lots of throws and trips and takedowns typical in freestyle.

    For example Plate 8.

    When you have him positioned in the Hacken, and he himself is properly set in the Wag (balanced stance). Thus use this technique, it is called the Hinder Wurff (rearward throw).
    Suplex anyone?

    Again, this is from ARMA.
  10. nzeman is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 1:11pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You will find all of these plays and techniques in the Italian sources as well.

    I am not well versed in any unarmed combat system at all, although I would like when I get the time to practice some BJJ and Muay Thai or Savate.

    I am pretty familiar with the original sources, and as somebody already stated there is a great emphasis on standing take-downs and throws as opposed to going to the ground with your opponent. The general theory on this is that it is very armed combat-oriented, and you really don't want to end up on the ground when there are horses, spears, pollaxes, and maces flying around. But you do want your opponent to end up on the ground (hopefully with you standing). So there are a lot of "tipping and tripping" actions along with arm and joint locks. Fiore has one armored technique where the opponent goes for a low double-leg takedown, and his answer to this is to grab the helmet and pull the guy forward, which in armor isn't so hard to do (your balance, mobility, and center or gravity are very different in plate armor).

    Incidentally there is a German manuscript with several groundfighting techniques in full armor, mostly involving holding the guy down while you use your dagger to find gaps in his plate and thrust. You can find the untranslated scans on the ARMA site as well (it is called the Gladiatoria text I believe). It looks mostly like a dueling text, as opposed to "combat", so pinning techniques on the ground would be more apporpriate.
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