Medieval German Martial Art???

**stjohnwayne** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 12:13am

Typically, any oddball out there can be id'd as bs if I google his name and the word bullshido... haven't seen this one, it should be interesting:

http://alliancemartialarts.com/germanvideo.htm

"Medieval German Unarmed Combat" by Pete Kautz... hmm, anyone know anything about this guy? My first reaction is how would he know unarmed combat techniques supposedly from half a millenium ago?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's some valid historical text out there where he's getting this stuff from. But maybe he's full o'crap too.

**misanthropic777** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 3:08am

Originally Posted by stjohnwayne

Typically, any oddball out there can be id'd as bs if I google his name and the word bullshido... haven't seen this one, it should be interesting:

http://alliancemartialarts.com/germanvideo.htm

"Medieval German Unarmed Combat" by Pete Kautz... hmm, anyone know anything about this guy? My first reaction is how would he know unarmed combat techniques supposedly from half a millenium ago?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's some valid historical text out there where he's getting this stuff from. But maybe he's full o'crap too.

I know Pete and while I'm not 100% on everything he teaches, his work with the medieval wrestling is developed directly from a series of surviving manuals that a number of people are working from. The people who've reviewed it on his website are all very active in the recreation of various historical martial arts. Pete is also upfront about the fact that he is trying to reconstruct a martial art with a dead lineage from old, often difficult to work with texts and that what he presents is his interpretation only, not gospel.

If you go here: http://aemma.org/library_960plus.html

Select 'Knowledge Base, then 'Online Library', then '15th century' you can see a partial list of some surviving manuscripts. IIRC Pete is working largely from the Ringeck, Von Danzig, Talhoffer and Solothurner texts.

**lacy378** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 3:23am

Originally Posted by misanthropic777

I know Pete and while I'm not 100% on everything he teaches, his work with the medieval wrestling is developed directly from a series of surviving manuals that a number of people are working from. The people who've reviewed it on his website are all very active in the recreation of various historical martial arts. Pete is also upfront about the fact that he is trying to reconstruct a martial art with a dead lineage from old, often difficult to work with texts and that what he presents is his interpretation only, not gospel.

If you go here: http://aemma.org/library_960plus.html

Select 'Knowledge Base, then 'Online Library', then '15th century' you can see a partial list of some surviving manuscripts. IIRC Pete is working largely from the Ringeck, Von Danzig, Talhoffer and Solothurner texts.

If he's working from a series of old books ( well, that's what they are) and there isn't a surviving practitioner of these arts then how in the HELL can the organization he's with have a ranking system? The website lists (for example) to qualify for master:

The candidates that have access to an IMAF master and must train with him/her for an appropriate period of time.
The candidate must be presented to the examination board by that master training the candidate. Candidates that do not have access to an IMAF master locally may test for masters certification by presenting an independent study and paper. This study must encompass all of the requirements and criteria of IMAF.
A formal letter of intention to test with the International Masters at Arms Federation must be initially submitted by the candidate. Following this, a formal presentation must be made of his/her study which must be representative of the work and research that the candidate has done to that point. All work must be historically accurate and verifiable/documented within the period treatises. If accepted a candidate must then fulfill the requirements of IMAF in order to be eligible to test for Master at Arms.

But once again. We're talking about dead arts. Medieval swordsmanship/boxing/and wrestling all died out. Only their modern sport counterparts are found. So, you've got a bunch of grown men reading books, looking at pictures and playing dress up so they can run around with swords and pretend to be nights. I'm sure later on they hold parties, call themselves lord and lady, and bugger their happy brains out.
Thanks for the website, a good laugh. And now I need to puke.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 5:02am

But once again. We're talking about dead arts. Medieval swordsmanship/boxing/and wrestling all died out. Only their modern sport counterparts are found. So, you've got a bunch of grown men reading books, looking at pictures and playing dress up so they can run around with swords and pretend to be nights. I'm sure later on they hold parties, call themselves lord and lady, and bugger their happy brains out.

You're talking about medieval re-enactment - SCA and similar societies. To be fair, although LARPing is a major activity with these groups, they still fight hard; just not often according to strictly historical "rules" or techniques.

Historical European martial arts, is the serious study and pressure-testing (via lots of live, full contact fighting) of the combat treatises produced by historical European masters-at-arms. It has nothing to do with LARPing as Lords and Ladies and it's been a fast-growing international movement for about the past ten years.

BTW, by "serious study" I don't mean looking at old pictures and making **** up: some of these guys spend a couple of years learning, say, medieval German or Italian so they can translate their sources properly.

I'm sure that this is meaningless without video so here are a few clips representing typical sparring sessions with various weapons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0LYN_JUBGY
- a longsword fencing tournament in France
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6iHFhPk1gY
- informal longsword fencing in London
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi7TAQOWhKc
- rapier fencing, USA

and excerpts from an instructional DVD on kampfringen (medieval German unarmed combat, lots of grappling), which is one of Pete Kautz's specialties:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT1ODIjPXh0

**Askari** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 8:55am

I am very interested in the recreation of Medieval weapons-work that is going on. I've read the old manuals and I admire those that are attempting to bring this ancient art to life. I just wish they lived a little closer so I could sit down and talk to them about it and maybe spar with them a bit.

This is not LARPing.

This is a type of experimental archeology to recreate that which we have lost through time or inattention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_archaeology

**CrapKnee** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 9:08am

I'm an ARMA member, but I'm not going to dare touch this one. I think AnnaTrocity might be able to better explain this.

SCA fighting, however, is a lot like the Olympic TKD of historical martial arts, from what I know. They fight hardish, but their target areas are very limited and exclude the forearms and lower leg, the last being the site of something like 70% of the wounds found on corpses. Also, their "weapons" have no edge/flat distinction and thus are closer to sticks.

**Wolf** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 11:01am

Originally Posted by lacy378

If he's working from a series of old books ( well, that's what they are) and there isn't a surviving practitioner of these arts then how in the HELL can the organization he's with have a ranking system? The website lists (for example) to qualify for master:

The candidates that have access to an IMAF master and must train with him/her for an appropriate period of time.
The candidate must be presented to the examination board by that master training the candidate. Candidates that do not have access to an IMAF master locally may test for masters certification by presenting an independent study and paper. This study must encompass all of the requirements and criteria of IMAF.
A formal letter of intention to test with the International Masters at Arms Federation must be initially submitted by the candidate. Following this, a formal presentation must be made of his/her study which must be representative of the work and research that the candidate has done to that point. All work must be historically accurate and verifiable/documented within the period treatises. If accepted a candidate must then fulfill the requirements of IMAF in order to be eligible to test for Master at Arms.

But once again. We're talking about dead arts. Medieval swordsmanship/boxing/and wrestling all died out. Only their modern sport counterparts are found. So, you've got a bunch of grown men reading books, looking at pictures and playing dress up so they can run around with swords and pretend to be nights. I'm sure later on they hold parties, call themselves lord and lady, and bugger their happy brains out.
Thanks for the website, a good laugh. And now I need to puke.

I think the videos shown were solid enough evidence to prove you wrong. Just because someone is trying to recreate a seemingly dead historical art, that doesn't make in "Playing Dressup." I'm very impressed by the level of comeptition I saw in those videos. I think you need research something a bit more before you jumpt to conclusions.

**The Crack Taoist** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 11:09am

Given that Keating has seen fit to collaborate with Kautz on apparatus training for FMA...

and given that Kautz *explicitely* says he is recreating.. not a survival...

I'd give him a pass.

And with respect to the "masters" mentioned.. one of the "masters"
mentioned in the IMAF is Maetro Ramon Martinez (Martinez Academy
of Arms.. he's the one who reconstructed the Spanish school of fence).

Mentioning the IMAF gives someone the possibility of *more* credibility..
not *less*.

Don't get me wrong.. the WMA have their own fruits, nuts and assorted veggies..
but their best people would be at the top of any trad MA you can name (and most
of them have BTDT in those TMA).

**Packinghouse Du** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 2:03pm

Some of those hits to the wrists looked painful!

**misanthropic777** · Posted On: 8/12/2007 4:06pm

Originally Posted by The Crack Taoist

And with respect to the "masters" mentioned.. one of the "masters" mentioned in the IMAF is Maetro Ramon Martinez (Martinez Academy
of Arms.. he's the one who reconstructed the Spanish school of fence).

Mentioning the IMAF gives someone the possibility of *more* credibility..
not *less*.

Well, Ramon is a legitimate classical fencing master, in that he studied under a master who had been certified by a board examination (I forget which French certifiying body Rohdes got his maitre d'armes cert from, but such bodies still exist in France, Italy and the US for classical fencing lineages see here: http://www.northwestacademyofarms.com/aboutteacher.htm for a good example).

IMAF is an independent body created by Martinez and some others to attempt to give legitimacy to western martial arts instructors. There is a great deal of disagreement about whether it does so or not, and many people choose to simply ignore it. It's a widely held opinion that there can't be any sort of certifying body specifically because these are dead lineages. Some schools certify instructors, but that's mostly them being tested on whether they actually know the material and have some ability to teach, no 'mastery' is implied.

And intepretations of this stuff are constantly changing; I don't know anyone who genuinely believes they know 't3h re4l WMA d34d1y sk1llzz".

There is a clear differentiation between historical European martial arts study and medieval/renaissance re-enactment/LARPing. The links page from the site the OP mentioned shows a bunch of places studying this material: http://alliancemartialarts.com/medievallinks.htm