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  1. Goddels is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 12:12pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "A more plausible theory on the origins of eskrima are presented in startling detail from its early beginnings as a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders and its later fusion with Spanish fencing through the Jesuit warrior priests during the pivotal years 1635-1644, the height of Spanish rapier fencing in Europe during the Renaissance"

    What you have done is to actually support my argument. As stated in the paragraph, it is only a theory. If indeed it was a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders, it had to evolve into a method of tactics. And just in case you were not sure, those Moro pirates are also an integral part if the blanket of Filipino history. That it might have blended later with Spanish or Italian methods I think is unavoidable.

    As I insinuated in my post, the origin of the name kali itself was not as important as the distancing from it's Spanish predecessor. Calling it a fraud is somewhat mean spirited. It was (in my opinion) an attempt to identify the thing that preceded modern FMA. The first requirement would be to give it an identity or a name. If early man had a different name for the sabre tooth tiger, would that mean that this cat did not really exist simply because the name was different? If there was truly no Filipino fighting art prior to the arrival of the Spanish where did this love affair with the blade come from? They didn't just get pissed off one afternoon and start fighting. And what about those plaques with all those different sorts of tribal blades must have been inspired by something other than tourist pesos.
  2. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 12:45pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goddels View Post
    What you have done is to actually support my argument.
    no, what i actually did was ask a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goddels View Post
    It was (in my opinion) an attempt to identify the thing that preceded modern FMA.
    if 'kali' is an identifier for the thing that preceded modern fma, would using it to identify modern fma be fraudulent?



    tim
  3. Goddels is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 2:38pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is no more fraudulent to use the word Kali than to use the word eskrima. Eskrima is the Spanish word for fencing. FMA does not resemble Spanish fencing in any form that I have ever witnessed. Perhaps it resembles the renaissance forms that preceded it, but that would draw forth your suggestions of fraudulence as renaissance eskrima does not resemble modern FMA. Therefore, perhaps, that name should not be used either.

    These names will not go away soon. Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima are just three names used to identify this/these arts. When I started, I heard about many more than only these. These ones seem to have survived. FMA seems to be getting a lot of ink. Maybe in another 20 years they will be replaced by others. As to the true origins of the art (occasionally) known by the name Kali and it's use of that name, a good story sells more easily that the raw truth. Always has.
  4. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 2:41pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goddels View Post
    It is no more fraudulent to use the word Kali than to use the word eskrima.
    you seem to be arguing with me over something i'm not arguing about. if a term (any term) is used to describe the thing that preceded a modern art, then is it not fraudulent to use that same term to describe the modern art? in other words, the modern art is being presented as the predecessor.



    tim
  5. Sikaranista is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 3:30pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    you seem to be arguing with me over something i'm not arguing about. if a term (any term) is used to describe the thing that preceded a modern art, then is it not fraudulent to use that same term to describe the modern art? in other words, the modern art is being presented as the predecessor.



    tim
    I do not agree with that logic.

    Using some term that preceded some art
    does not necessarily equal
    presenting the art as its predecessor
  6. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 3:43pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikaranista View Post
    I do not agree with that logic.

    Using some term that preceded some art
    does not necessarily equal
    presenting the art as its predecessor
    even when the term is brought into use specifically to refer to the predecessor, as godells stated?

    "It was (in my opinion) an attempt to identify the thing that preceded modern FMA."

    to be clear- i don't have a problem with the term 'kali.' i don't have a problem with referring to pre-hispanic fma as 'kali.' i don't have a problem with referring to modern fma as 'kali.' i think when someone uses 'kali' to refer to both the pre-hispanic fma, and modern fma, it's disingenuous at best. if nothing else, the use of the word 'kali' would no longer be used to refer only to pre-hispanic fma, and so its usefulness as a way to identify pre-hispanic fma is compromised. otherwise, in order to avoid conflating the two, we would have to ask 'which kali?' each time the term is used.



    tim
  7. Sikaranista is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/03/2010 6:06pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahhh...I see what you are saying. And I agree...it could be fraudulent, or at least confusing.

    By the way...I speak Spanish.

    Eskrima is not the Spanish word for fencing, neither is Escrima. These are Filipino terms. They are Hispanized Filipino terms, yes -- but Filipino terms nonetheless.

    As far as I can tell, Escrima/Eskrima sources from la esgrima which is the Spanish term for western fencing, and also from esgrimir(se), which means "to wield" or "to put forward". The verb in its reflexive form is commonly used to refer to a situation where bladed weapons were wielded [by a person]

    We wield bladed weapons in the FMAs, do we not?


    This newspaper article is a follow-up story about a street brawl in Mediterranean Spain.

    The headline is:
    En (In) la pelea (the fight) se esgrimieron (were weilded by someone) armas blancas (bladed weapons) y (and) objetos contundentes (blunt objects)

    The first paragraph:
    Otro vecino de Burriana ha sido detenido por su presunta implicación en la reyerta que terminó con dos ciudadanos heridos por un sable, pelea en la que se esgrimieron todo tipo de armas blancas y objetos contundentes.


    Translation:
    Another Burriana resident has been arrested for their alleged involvement in the brawl where two people ended up stabbed, the fight wielded all kinds of knives and blunt objects.

    Make no mistake, this was no fencing match.
  8. Gulogod is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2010 10:28am


     Style: Suntukaran

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goddels View Post
    "A more plausible theory on the origins of eskrima are presented in startling detail from its early beginnings as a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders and its later fusion with Spanish fencing through the Jesuit warrior priests during the pivotal years 1635-1644, the height of Spanish rapier fencing in Europe during the Renaissance"

    What you have done is to actually support my argument. As stated in the paragraph, it is only a theory. If indeed it was a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders, it had to evolve into a method of tactics. And just in case you were not sure, those Moro pirates are also an integral part if the blanket of Filipino history. That it might have blended later with Spanish or Italian methods I think is unavoidable.

    As I insinuated in my post, the origin of the name kali itself was not as important as the distancing from it's Spanish predecessor. Calling it a fraud is somewhat mean spirited. It was (in my opinion) an attempt to identify the thing that preceded modern FMA. The first requirement would be to give it an identity or a name. If early man had a different name for the sabre tooth tiger, would that mean that this cat did not really exist simply because the name was different? If there was truly no Filipino fighting art prior to the arrival of the Spanish where did this love affair with the blade come from? They didn't just get pissed off one afternoon and start fighting. And what about those plaques with all those different sorts of tribal blades must have been inspired by something other than tourist pesos.
    The origin of the word kali is not as important as the intent of the kali proponents to distance themselves from arnis/eskrima but the attempt was a blunder since the word was suspicious from the very start since kali as a martial art has only been a recent "discovery", a mere decades back therefore the more people will inquire to the art of the supposedly pre-spanish kali and eventually find that it is so outstandingly similar to arnis/eskrima, just another recent branding of the same old art that everybody knows. Renaming the arts arnis/eskrima as kali won't make it pre-spanish. It will actually make it sound post-spanish.
  9. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2010 12:14pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goddels View Post
    FMA does not resemble Spanish fencing in any form that I have ever witnessed.
    Yeah, the "Espada E Daga" we learn has noooooooo relation to "Spanish Fencing".

    When I was training with a work friend who was a "Kuya Guro" in Pabuan Arnis, the stances and foot work we learned were very heavily influenced by fencing. It was actually quite obvious in that particular style. (And those guys KICK ASS BTW. A very good school, with a real emphasis on "tradition".)
  10. Pat Pintados is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2010 12:40am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kali Ilustrisimo swordwork and footwork is practical fencing without lunging. I fenced competitive Sabre for 5 years in school, which is why i pick it up so easily. When I asked him, even GM Norman Suanico credited the Spanish influence on Antonio Ilustrisimo's development of the system. Uno Y Quatro? "Boca Del Lobo" Sinawali pattern?

    Bisayan arko=arch.
    Cebuano arko=arch.
    Esperanto arko=arc, bow.
    Hiligaynon arko=arch.
    Ilongot arko=arch.
    Pampangan arko=arch.
    Spanish arko=arch.
    Tagalog arko=arch.
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