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  1. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2008 11:48am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tofudog
    Hi

    Does Pekiti Tirsia Kali usually include full contact empty hand sparring? I am bit skeptical of open hand strikes, is this something common to all FMA´s?

    There´s a (too) long explanation here: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/openHan...&file=openHand

    which, to put it nicely, seems a bit odd. Anyone care to comment?
    If you fall over, do you put a fist out to stop yourself, or open hands? So right away you can see the palm is a safer surface for you to use then the thin skin of your knuckles.

    Escrima needs to control weapons so open hand is a priority.

    Fists are reat but they may take longer to learn. Open hands also are more functional as they can grab or control instantly at contact.

    As to the power slap refered to in the article I have seen it demonstrated, and it seems prety powerful.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  2. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2008 12:01pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tofudog
    Hi

    Does Pekiti Tirsia Kali usually include full contact empty hand sparring? I am bit skeptical of open hand strikes, is this something common to all FMA´s?

    There´s a (too) long explanation here: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/openHan...&file=openHand

    which, to put it nicely, seems a bit odd. Anyone care to comment?
    So, the Savate guy is skeptical of open hand strikes...

    Why, exactly? Skeptical in that you don't think they exist? Or that you don't think they would work?

    The underlying philosophy of many FMA styles is that the principles applied to say, the stick, are the same principles applied to the knife, sword, staff, empty hand, etc... So, in essence, when you train one thing you're training everything. Open hand strikes are a natural extension of knife or stick strikes. FMA's are more about creating angles and entry points than about trading boxing-style punches.

    I would recommend the Dog Brothers "Kali Tudo" DVD for a better overview of how it applies to a sportfighting context (and for a fairly amusing clip of Dog Brother Marc Denny knocking a guy out with open hand strikes)

    http://dogbrothers.com/product_info....products_id=90
  3. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2008 12:21pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of the older war-based arts used open handed strikes. You'll find them in JJJ, European blade systems, FMA, and others. Open handed strikes can quickly become grabs. In a weapon fight this could mean a distraction, then a disarm. Or it could mean distraction, grab, throw, pull secondary weapon, shank your opponent while he's on the ground.

    There really is a difference between some modern sportive dueling arts and some of the stuff in older war arts. Both have their merits, depending on circumstances. Some of the stuff taught in older war arts is a martial dead-end. For instance, I can guarantee you that you will never be charged by someone with a 12 foot spear, whereas hundreds of years ago this was a common problem that many soldiers faced.

    But open hand strikes? There's definitely some sense to them. Have you ever broken your hand because you hit someone too hard in the wrong spot? I have. It's tough to break an open hand on someone's skull. Jam a finger maybe, but rarely a break. And I have seen people knocked out by open hand strikes. They tend to have less impact than a fist, but can still wallop someone pretty well and also are a lot less risky with regards to hand-damage. And as I mentioned earlier, they can transition well to throws if you are so inclined.
  4. mojo23 is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2008 12:44pm


     Style: PTK / MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Trying to avoid repeating earlier posts...

    Yeah, I'm a modern arnis guy. My teacher was a student of Remy's. According to him, they're just 3 names for the same family of styles. Either way, while the Filipino martial arts are quite old, what you'll be studying now was likely codified sometime in the last 100 years, if not less.

    He also will recommend open handed strikes because in his words, very few people really know how to make a fist, and so it's a good way to hurt yourself as much as the other guy. Although when we train empty hand we do primarily train to throw closed fist punches, as was pointed out by Ryno, and open hand strike can turn into a clinch or a disarm.
  5. Tofudog is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2008 4:55pm


     Style: Boxing, Greco, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    So, the Savate guy is skeptical of open hand strikes...

    Why, exactly? Skeptical in that you don't think they exist? Or that you don't think they would work?

    The underlying philosophy of many FMA styles is that the principles applied to say, the stick, are the same principles applied to the knife, sword, staff, empty hand, etc... So, in essence, when you train one thing you're training everything. Open hand strikes are a natural extension of knife or stick strikes. FMA's are more about creating angles and entry points than about trading boxing-style punches.

    I would recommend the Dog Brothers "Kali Tudo" DVD for a better overview of how it applies to a sportfighting context (and for a fairly amusing clip of Dog Brother Marc Denny knocking a guy out with open hand strikes)

    http://dogbrothers.com/product_info....products_id=90
    Ok, thanks all for your answers. I have really no experience of FMA´s whatsoever, but am curious and would like to try out a intro course later in the year - The FMA approach just seems so radically different to my brain. Have try it first hand before I ask more silly questions, methinks. edit: That Dog bros DVD seems to be what I am looking for, will order it. Thanks.
    Last edited by Tofudog; 1/09/2008 4:57pm at .
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 2:20am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    “Even if the hand is used for war like purposes, it is in ninety- nine cases out of every one hundred used with the fingers open”
    - E.B.Michell, English boxing professor and author, 1889.

    -Found on a savate website:
    http://www.savateaustralia.com/skills/Open%20Hands.htm
    Last edited by Permalost; 1/10/2008 2:22am at .
  7. Tofudog is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 3:34am


     Style: Boxing, Greco, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    “Even if the hand is used for war like purposes, it is in ninety- nine cases out of every one hundred used with the fingers open”
    - E.B.Michell, English boxing professor and author, 1889.

    -Found on a savate website:
    http://www.savateaustralia.com/skills/Open%20Hands.htm
    Savate or "French Kickboxing" can be traced back to the 18th century when sailors from the port of Marseilles practised a sport known as "Chausson". This was purely a kicking sport, it is presumed that the styles of kicks were taken from fighting systems seen whilst visiting the eastern oriental countries. By 1820 the sport had grown in popularity throughout France and some "open" hand strikes had been added. In 1830 Mon. Charles Lecour, after losing a bout to an English pugilist or "boxer" Owen Swift, introduced the punching techniques seen in traditional English boxing. This was the birth of modern Savate

    As far as I know, the open hand was used in original form of savate because fist fighting at the time carried heavy sanctions if brawlers were caught by authorities. Bridgeman savate, mainly practiced in Australia is closer to the original forms - also, Savate Defence still has many older (teh d3adly) techniques. For FMA fans, I suggest checking out both Savate Defence and Canne de Combat, form of French stick fighting.
  8. Ken is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 12:37pm


     Style: I/L, Sayoc, Atienza FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I recall correctly, Savate started out as a sport for defense and amusement on French ship decks, with the combatants often hanging onto the ropes on the ships for support. If this is the case, the open hand would make sense in that regard because of the need to quickly grasp the ropes.
  9. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 12:46pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    So, the Savate guy is skeptical of open hand strikes...

    Why, exactly? Skeptical in that you don't think they exist? Or that you don't think they would work?

    The underlying philosophy of many FMA styles is that the principles applied to say, the stick, are the same principles applied to the knife, sword, staff, empty hand, etc... So, in essence, when you train one thing you're training everything. Open hand strikes are a natural extension of knife or stick strikes. FMA's are more about creating angles and entry points than about trading boxing-style punches.

    I would recommend the Dog Brothers "Kali Tudo" DVD for a better overview of how it applies to a sportfighting context (and for a fairly amusing clip of Dog Brother Marc Denny knocking a guy out with open hand strikes)

    http://dogbrothers.com/product_info....products_id=90

    I should point out that this DVD doesn't actually go into striking mechancis at all. The distinctive "FMA" flavor comes primarily from the footwork, defenses and entries
  10. Tofudog is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 12:54pm


     Style: Boxing, Greco, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    If I recall correctly, Savate started out as a sport for defense and amusement on French ship decks, with the combatants often hanging onto the ropes on the ships for support. If this is the case, the open hand would make sense in that regard because of the need to quickly grasp the ropes.
    Correct. The "Game of Marseille" and "Lutte Parisienne" or Parisian street fighting style provided the basis.
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