Lack of Sparring in Ko-ryu Arts

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 8/09/2007 3:26pm

This didn't belong is any thread so far and I found myself explaining this to a few people from time to time so blah....

[rant]
I was once told by a Bujinkan 15th dan instructor that some Ko-ryu Jujutsu ryu-ha have a history of sparring where other ko-ryu jujutsu ha do not. Then considering both were used on the battlefield those training methods are of equal merit.

This is a false statement.

Japanese ryu-ha history is full of challenge matches and sparring, the "too good/deadly to spar" rheotic didn't come till Tokagawa-era, afer the waring states period.

Now, the reason it started was political. At that time the emperor trained in a sword style called Yagyu Shinkage-ryu reportively then and still claimed the best sword style in Japan. Claimed by who? Well, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Kenjutsu-ka.

See, The founder of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu claimed in was the best style and the emperor practiced it so who can argue? Well anyone who can beat them. Well without battles to test themselves, They put an inter-school and out of school ban on sparring. "You already do the best sword style .... why do you need to spar?"

Hence the original "too deadly to spar." When the emperor studies at your school and you don't let your student spar anyone else or themselves. Who can prove you aren't the best.

So no, no ko-ryu school that actually fought at all did kata-only training.

[/rant]

**Permalost** · Posted On: 8/10/2007 2:02am

Interesting. I've read Tokugawa's rule directly and indirectly had a large effect on Japanese and Okinawan martial arts.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 8/10/2007 3:47am

I've seen some video of Koryu randori/sparring with weapons and gear, and I've heard that some do unarmed randori. I'd be particularly interested in seeing Koryu striking in a free context if anybody knows of online video.

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 8/11/2007 4:23pm

Well, kendo evolved from antecedents where practitioners sparred. That's where fukuro shinai come from, eh?

**liekuei** · Posted On: 8/13/2007 1:29pm

you think that they would spar not only to test them but also to develop control. After all, even in the old days not everyone you use martial arts on you want to maim or kill.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 8/13/2007 9:02pm

However, you can use the lack of sparring with political control to create the illusion of an ultimate style. Why would do allow sparring that could break that image.

If you look in my sig you get a story about a Shinkage-ryu instructor I meant. We sparred, which is the against the Shinkage-ryu philosophy (he even made a point that it was against his school's wishes). It hard to claim Shinkage-ryu is that ultimate style after a few year student of an "inferior" style manhandled him.

However, if we never sparred, the illusion could never be broken.