Revisiting the definition of "TMA"

**AAAhmed46** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 2:37pm

Originally Posted by Phrost

I think this thread has a lot of merit. Frankly, I don't see much difference between the defining,"Traditional" aspects of "Traditional Martial Arts", and what Civil War re-enactors do on their weekends. It's escapism and role playing, unless you're raised as a member of that particular culture.

I'd feel just as goofy walking around in hakama as I would wearing feathers and moccasins.

But what if you trained in street clothes like t-shirts and shorts?

THough i would feel like a retard walking down the street in a rash guard.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 2:38pm

My definition of 'traditional' is :-

You're practicing something more than about 100 years old and practitioners from a 100 years ago would recognise what you are doing (even if it's undergone some natural amount of change).

**Matt W.** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 2:39pm

Yeah, see? "Traditional" is vague and/or too often misused. Boxing and wrestling have lots of traditions in them, but no one thinks of them as TMA's.

OTOH, wearing a Hakama is anachronistic. Nobody wears clothes like that anymore. (Speaking of re-enacting, the SCA stands for the Society for Creative Anachronism, which is exactly what we're talking about here.) Being controlling of students, when it's not actual bullshido, is a cultural anachronism.

To me, this supports the idea that what we really mean when we say TMA is Anachronistic MA.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 2:42pm

I actually do think of Boxing and Wrestling as TMAs. Muay Thai too. Lots of CMA styles. The older Okinawan karate styles. Japanese Koryu.

Not Aikido, not modern JJJ styles, not RBSD, not FC kickboxing, not MMA and not Bujinkan.

Both of those groups have things you'd think of as 'shitty' in them and stuff a lot of people would like.

People are using the word 'traditional' in a confusing way when what they really mean to say is 'shitty'. Why not just say 'shitty MA' ?

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 2:43pm

Originally Posted by Matt W.

Eyebeams I find there is far, far too much crossover with arts in the catagories you listed for those to be definitive. Though I agree, effectiveness is something to be found on both sides of the aisle.

Was there anything you found inadequate about my definition of TMA?

Basically, I don't think there's anything to be gained by defining TMA at all. I don't think definitive categories are necessary or can ever be accurate. Plus, the state of the art is changing constantly. Lots of traditional exercises like suburi and nigiri game lifts are a lot more plausible in the post-Crossfit functional strength era. I didn't do anything of the kind back in the late 80s/early 90s even when I practiced an art that had them because we belonged to that specificity-focused, muscle-isolation-focused era.

Instead, I think we should look honestly at what an art's primary social role is and how to make that compatible with proven effective self-defense practices.

Nobody would be here if they didn't think resistant training with heavy contact and a emphasis on techniques that work under those circumstances were the nucleus of what should be done. But the part where advocates *constantly* shoot themselves in the foot is by talking about emulating people with an agenda that isn't for everybody. Most people just don't give a **** about MMA or Judo competition. When you point to those fighters as people to be emulated you lose the majority of practitioners *even when you are right.* When you crap in the face of people for doing something that does fit their agenda you *also* lose them, even if it isn't effective for self-protection.

**Matt W.** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 2:45pm

I think you're atypical, Cullion. And TMA doesn't always mean "shitty". I think most people would refer to Judo and Kyokushin as TMA, but those arts are held in fairly high regard by most.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 3:18pm

Originally Posted by Matt W.

I think most people would refer to Judo and Kyokushin as TMA, but those arts are held in fairly high regard by most.

I'm aware that my definition of TMA is different than most, that's sorta what I'm trying to explain.

I got the impression that people generally use 'TMA' here to denote anachronistic and ineffective. As you point out, that's not always true (even when they actually do forms and wear gis).

I also read of people on other sites practicing styles no more than 50 years old that still refuse to engage in much if any competitive sparring or resistant drilling who refer to themselves as 'traditionalists', mostly with the apparent aim of distancing themselves from those nasty MMA thugs.

They aren't.

**AAAhmed46** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 3:27pm

Originally Posted by Matt W.

I think you're atypical, Cullion. And TMA doesn't always mean "shitty". I think most people would refer to Judo and Kyokushin as TMA, but those arts are held in fairly high regard by most.

It seems to me that people talk about TMA, they often refer to anything that comes from Asia. Even muay thai.

**Tom .C** · Posted On: 8/08/2007 3:45pm

The term TMA represents a named traditional style of martial art such as Judo, Jujitsu, Karate, Kung Fu, etc. The different styles then break off into their named systems as part of these traditional styles. This gets confusing when all of these different styles collide but most people say they do "style" which is a type of "TMA name" . MMA is generally understood to contain elements of BJJ and MT and considered to be sport fighting while mma is generally a collection of somebody's ideas of "self defence". In all, most people just use their style name when describing what they do and they use "TMA" when they cast a broad net about what other people do. Just my opinion though.