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  1. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 11:51am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate

    Umm, If you're doing an "Undercover Investigation" wouldn't announcing it pretty much nullify th Undercover part.



    Pardon me, I was under the assumption that you folks would appreciate irony. It was a joke...along with most of the post. I was trying to offer it lightly. Apparently humor only works when you're agreeing with the flock.


    I guess someone could see this as an occassion of you reacting with a reflex action that probably wasn't the most suitable to gain the understanding of a third party...And you're telling us how the instructor should of reacted? Sounds like possibly a similar situation. Welcome to human nature. When someone feels violated--even a Ninjutsu teacher, apparently--they don't react in a welcoming way.

    So, the critic here acts in a way that leads this person to feel violated. This person closes the door to the critic. The response from the forum is, figuratively,"What?!? You spit in his face and now he doesn't want to come here and kiss our asses by explaining himself?"

    That you think the guy should defend himself against this attack, in my opinion, displays that you're the one who believes himself superior. (Atleast I was only joking.) What opinion do you hold of yourself that you think you (as an extension of the forum) can violate someone and then they should answer to you?

    All the OP had to do is say it upfront. If the guy doesn't let people in, then call BS on him for that reason. If Bullshido is such a God-send, then simply on the face of the recommendation alone, you accomplish what you've set out to do.


    Any way, I would bet that if there was a list of questions and things you wanted to look at, the OP could apologize sincerely, tell the instructor what criteria and questions he's looking for and ask to return. I believe you'd find that the instructor accepts him back and that the classes are the same. However, this time you'd get thorough explanation of the why's and what's.

    I guess it all depends on our goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Packinghouse Du
    Repeat after me, "No one has the right to pass off shoddy goods to make a living." Now, say that until you realize that we don't give a **** about anyones livlihood. He claims to teach an effective means of self defense. We as consumers (And consumer advocates of a sort) have the right to evaluate his claims in a reasonable manner, which this was, and form a conclusion about them. MOST consumer evaluations are secret for a reason. Health inspections are supposed to be surprises, "Secret" Shoppers are supposed to be unknown to the store, and food critics don't normally tell resteraunts when they are coming to eat there. The entire point of a critical evaluation is to see something in its normal state, not to see the gussied up version that the merchant wants to trot out for that sort of thing while he continues to pass off shoddy crap to the regulars. As I see it the evaluation of this guys school stands at "Refused reasonable request to view/participate in classes." Which says bullshido to me.



    I'm not arguing that no one has the right to pass off shoddy teaching.

    For every restaurant, the same type of cleanliness is expected. For every blender sold, you expect a group of characteristics. The steak is going to be prepared the same way everytime (except requests of course). When it's a blender, there are things everyone in the market for a blender knows it should have.


    Trying to assess a martial art in it's "normal state" doesn't do it justice. You don't know the students. Where they began is a major consideration. What the advanced students are working on, and why, would make a big difference.


    You guys act like all this stuff would be hidden. If you told them that you were doing a review, if with your reputation they didn't close the doors to you (which of course would make them BS pariah.), they would answer your fifty questions (if you don't have a standard set of questions for these investigations, developing them would help make the process more beneficial), show you what the advanced people can do and, to show you how they arrived there, show you a regular class.

    It's just decency. The school cannot hide bs. Nor would they hide it. (There's a global syndicate of ki Aikido schools that flourish quite well. They keep the doors wide open for everyone to see what they do. I've been to a handful of their dojo to watch. Believe me, that style isn't short on students, nor are they short on funds. They have some of the nicest dojo I've seen.) A standard group of questions with advance notice would turn something like this review from being an exercise in shittalking into something authentic and reliable...something that truly is a service.

    Should a school who's offering the wicked self-defense not allow you access, then begin your undercover work. However, do it with a list of things to look at so there's direction and the hope of objectivity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Planet
    i don't know how people like Adam Alexander could Discourage a consumer report on a place of buissness because it is "rude" that his how scam artists and basic theives get away with things.


    Actually, I highly encourage consumer reports. However, I suggest it be done with notice and with a developed set of questions and a checklist of things to look for. In this way, it will be a valuable report rather than occassions to hurt people who might not deserve it.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 11:55am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maddog
    This is a model for how Bullshido investigations should be carried out.
    This is a good model of wait and see. Many of us have said it before. Don't get happy and finish your investigation FIRST.

    One of the best investigations was done by bunyip. He made it to the three (?) introductory classes and the hidden sign up base of a particular art.

    If you must, pay for a supporting membership and write it down in the BBC.
  3. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 12:18pm

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander



    Pardon me, I was under the assumption .........
    Here is your first mistake.

    You seem to think that somehow this was a violation of some sacred trust between school owner and........who?

    As a consumer, everyone has a right to know what they're paying for. The teacher should not care if you are looking at his school for personal reasons, or to impart the information to a like minded group of Martial Artists. If he has a good product he should welcome the attention.

    You seem to have some agenda on this subject, though for the life of me, I can't figure out what it would be. You practice Aikido according to your style field.

    Any school Owner, Instructor, student has the right, and is encouraged, to come on this board to refute / confirm the information. Many reviews / investigations are done secretly to see the product as it occurs naturally, not in the best possible light. This helps the reader see what they will really get after the honeymoon period.

    Aside from being derailed early, the investigation had no agenda / slant / malice. He was trying to find out what was being offered.

    Maybe you should enlighten us as to why you personally seem to have such a problem with this particular situation.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 12:25pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Exactly. What happened to FFF the troll.

    That's why critics of restaurants hide who they are. That's why the owner of Walmart periodically dresses down and stops in his stores.

    My old instructor would move the best forms performers and sparrers to the front of the school when, prospective students entered. We'd also do a harder workout.

    So, yes, I agree with FFF you have to pretend if you are going to seriously critique a school. A canned set of questions will set people off.
  5. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 12:27pm

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't troll all of the time,

    Just most of the time.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  6. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 1:00pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    Maybe you should enlighten us as to why you personally seem to have such a problem with this particular situation.
    Well, I think the words "problem" and "personally" are too strong for it. "Why does it bother you?" Would be more accurate.

    But to answer why it's personal. I think everytime we do something wrong to someone, we kill a little bit of the good that's in the world. I think the world around us is made up of our actions and intentions. If those are pure, then the world around us becomes better. (That's not to say I'm not a fan of good people enforcing goodness. I am for that.)

    I think the subterfuge caused harm. I think the groping style of investigation has grand potential to do harm. I think there's a lot of potential that, guided nicely, such investigations would do well for people and MAs.

    I guess I don't really care for the idea of calling something bs without clarifying what constitutes bs. Without something relatively objective, it begins to look like the pre-quel of Idiocracy..."That's stupid" "No, ahhh, that's stupid" ...and on and on. Christ, like it's that hard to say "We have five types of bs. Cheat, ineffective, etc." Then you move to "This place is bs for lack of intensity".

    If you're concerned about the day to day stuff of regular class, be more aggressive in getting the person who pissed off about the three year contract he signed two months ago to report their experience...through a standard survey that increases objectivity.

    For what it's worth, my position has nothing to do with Aikido. It's just the values I was raised with.
  7. maddog is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 1:06pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am surprised you are shocked he found out about your spy games. Afterall he is a NINJA.
  8. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 1:13pm

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander
    Well, I think the words "problem" and "personally" are too strong for it. "Why does it bother you?" Would be more accurate.

    But to answer why it's personal. I think everytime we do something wrong to someone, we kill a little bit of the good that's in the world. I think the world around us is made up of our actions and intentions. If those are pure, then the world around us becomes better. (That's not to say I'm not a fan of good people enforcing goodness. I am for that.)

    I think the subterfuge caused harm. I think the groping style of investigation has grand potential to do harm. I think there's a lot of potential that, guided nicely, such investigations would do well for people and MAs.

    I guess I don't really care for the idea of calling something bs without clarifying what constitutes bs. Without something relatively objective, it begins to look like the pre-quel of Idiocracy..."That's stupid" "No, ahhh, that's stupid" ...and on and on. Christ, like it's that hard to say "We have five types of bs. Cheat, ineffective, etc." Then you move to "This place is bs for lack of intensity".

    If you're concerned about the day to day stuff of regular class, be more aggressive in getting the person who pissed off about the three year contract he signed two months ago to report their experience...through a standard survey that increases objectivity.

    For what it's worth, my position has nothing to do with Aikido. It's just the values I was raised with.

    This site has outlined its guiding principles often.

    You have now proven you deserve the canned response:

    Lurk More,

    Read More,

    Post Less!

    You are giving knee jerk reactions based on a small sampling of information.

    Read the Coda Scott Investigations.

    Read about the Tiger Clay Debacle.

    Read the expose on Ashida Kim, George Dillman,and a host of other frauds, Crooks, and Conmen who operate under the guise of Martial arts instructors.

    Read the threads, where someone tried to pillory a teacher over a personal beef, and were taken to task for it.

    In Short, READ!

    When you have a reasoned, well thought out response, give it.

    Until then.....
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  9. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 1:25pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    This site has outlined its guiding principles often.

    You have now proven you deserve the canned response:

    Lurk More,

    Read More,

    Post Less!

    You are giving knee jerk reactions based on a small sampling of information.

    Read the Coda Scott Investigations.

    Read about the Tiger Clay Debacle.

    Read the expose on Ashida Kim, George Dillman,and a host of other frauds, Crooks, and Conmen who operate under the guise of Martial arts instructors.

    Read the threads, where someone tried to pillory a teacher over a personal beef, and were taken to task for it.

    In Short, READ!

    When you have a reasoned, well thought out response, give it.

    Until then.....
    I'll heed your advice.

    Do keep in mind, for as many "Adam Alexander read this or die" threads I've read, I haven't stumbled on anything remotely similar to what I'm suggesting...or guiding principles...and I've been here a few days...a

    Do keep in mind, that either you're pandering to each other, or you're trying to help people. I don't care which one you're doing. But, if you're going to dress youself in the wool of assistance, doesn't it seem unusual that a guy who's read a couple hundred posts here hasn't found it helpful? But, quite the contrary?

    It's not about you, it's about the consumer...then again, I guess it's about you...
    Last edited by Adam Alexander; 8/10/2007 1:30pm at .
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 1:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Positive

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12882
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=44950
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/sear...archid=1638532


    Defending the accused
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55778
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52272

    Negative
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34676
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28413


    Yes, I keep a small file for just such occasions. There are way more positive then negatives. These are some of the bigger ones. There are tons of small ones that just die out because, the BS is so large.

    Kueichi Do and Jogh Latourette(?) are a couple of others to look for.
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