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  1. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2007 9:34pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I'm a ninja now! (Quest Martial Arts in Ann Arbor, MI)

    I mentioned this on the EMU Bullshido thread, but I figured I should start my own rather than derail that one.
    Tonight, I went down to my local Toshindo school, Quest Martial Arts. I had planned on just dropping in on a couple lessons to try it out, but I learned that this was not up to protocol. Instead, I had to sign up for an introductory lesson before I could start taking the actual classes.
    Now, normally, the introductory lesson in fifteen dollars. I told the woman working at the reception desk (by the way - they have a reception desk. Tremble with fear.) that I couldn't afford that, being a poor bum college student that I am. She said that she would mark me down as a friend of hers so I could get my introductory lesson for free. She was quite nice.

    So instead, I sat and watched classes. There were three classes that I observed - level 1, level 2, and level 3. Apparently there's a black belt class for people more advanced, but it wasn't meeting and that night. I was invited to come watch it on a later day, which I may yet do.
    Level 1 was beginners. I overheard that students will generally be level 1 for about 9 months, before they can take level 2 classes. After that, I think's another year or so to level 3.
    They started out with some basic shadowboxing, which I thought was not so bad. However, I noticed that instead of forming a fist when they punched, the students would kind of flick their fingers out. I asked one of the receptionists about this, and he said that hitting with the palm is safer than with a fist, because you can injure your wrist with a punch. I think I said something about being able to injure your fingers with a palm strike, but I didn't press the point, as I wanted to be nice.

    Then they did some defence against a person pushing your shoulder from the side. It involved overhooking their arm, then stomping on their foot three times, then punching them in the stomach twice, then elbowing them in the head. This was all done in the traditional kempo "hold still while I hit you" style. They also shouted the word "stop" during every strike.
    After that was the intermediate class, which was much of the same stuff. They worked on an outside trip, similar to Osotogari, but without reaping the leg. He also demonstrated countering the trip by bridging your opponent over, which exceeded my expectations of ne-waza from a ninjutsu school. The class, however, did not work on this counter. I believe they might've done sit ups to warm up.

    Then came the advanced (level 3) class. First off, there were only three people in it. Second off, none of them appeared to be in very good shape. They began with a few warmups - some jumping jacks, pushups, and crunches. One of them - who appeared to be quite young - was not only unable to do a single pushup (he did them from his knees), but he was also unable to do a single crunch. He just kind of turned from side to side, almost like he was shrimping. Given that this was the advanced class, I expected a better level of physical conditioning.
    The most interesting portion of this was watching the Randori. I had seen some people carrying around head gear and chest protectors, so I figured that maybe this ninjutsu school was different and did some amount of contact sparring.
    I was mistaken. At least, not in the level three class.
    The randori consisted of an agressor attacking with slow motion punches, who would then fall whichever way the defender inclined him. Occasionally this would tussle onto the ground, where I would begin to feel exceptionally sad. One kid turned his back an opponent beneath him, and stayed there for several seconds without his partner putting in hooks or otherwise getting a grip.
    Also, they talked about using different "elements" during a fight - sinking down was "earth", moving backward was "water," and so on. I believe Hedgehogey has had some experience with the joys of element ninjas.

    I will say, in there defence, that all of the students I talked to were very nice people. As I mentioned, the girl working the front desk when I arrived was very helpful, giving me the introductory lesson for free (I wouldn't have signed up if I had to pay the fifteen dollars), and had a very amicable demeanor. I mentioned to several people that I did brazilain jiu-jitsu, and at no point did rhetoric such as "95% of what we do is illegal in the UFC" and "you never want to go the ground in a street fight" come up. One of the students (the receptionist who was working after the girl went home) I had meet before at a local cosplay contest (imagine that? An anime fan taking ninjutsu). I talked to him for a while, making sure to stay courteous and non-confrontational. I did mention about how Takamatsu's lineage was not accepted by the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, but didn't press the issue of the dubious historical authenticity of ninjutsu. As I said, the people there were very nice, and I wanted to return the courtesy.
    Anyways, I'll have my intro lesson on Thursday, so perhaps I can give more information then.
  2. maddog is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 2:36am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a model for how Bullshido investigations should be carried out.
  3. Jontan937 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 4:20am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai, some BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm proud of you not breaking down laughing as the people yelled stop, whilst stamping on their "stand there and recieve" dummie opponents.

    Good luck, I'd really like to see the end of this.
  4. bad credit is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 5:36am


     Style: MMA, JKD philosophy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Basing movements on elements is Steve Hayes misinterpretation of Ninjutsu. He may be the father of American Taijutsu, but he's considered a joke now. It's said that ninjas here owe him for bringing the material in the first place, and owe him a kick in the ass for making them have to start the art all over again to unlearn his bad habits.
  5. AcridSaint is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 8:29am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Avoid-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm no fan of ninjutsu, nor do I know anything about it, but I wanted to comment on two things that they did.

    One of these was the finger-flicking palm strikes. If these were indeed palm strikes and not some sort of strange finger jabs, the goal may be to avoid breaking or hurting your hand so you can transition to a weapon if the fight escalates. It's certainly possible to fight with an injured wrist or broken hand, but it's pretty hard to wield a knife or stick, not saying you can't break your fingers with a palm strike, of course.

    The second is the bit about yelling "stop". We've all heard about how unreliable eye-witness testimony is and I've known several folks who advocate yelling "stop" while defending yourself, even if you're holding your opponent smashing them. The idea here is that folks remember what they heard much better than what they saw, giving you a better defence in court should you get sued or arrested for the fight. I never did any research on this, but it seems to be a commonly held belief, even outside of ninjutsu.

    Anyways, very good review of the class.
  6. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 8:48am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bad credit
    Basing movements on elements is Steve Hayes misinterpretation of Ninjutsu. He may be the father of American Taijutsu, but he's considered a joke now. It's said that ninjas here owe him for bringing the material in the first place, and owe him a kick in the ass for making them have to start the art all over again to unlearn his bad habits.
    That would make sense, given that their store (by the way, their dojo has as store) is lined with books and videos by Stephen K Hayes. They also have a shrine way up on a wall in the middle of the training hall, but I didn't see it. I do remember the advanced class reciting something in Japanese towards, which may or may not have contained the word "Hatsumi."
    If they were praying to the almighty Hatsumi Sensei, that would be marvelous....
  7. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 11:00am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    More likely they are saying Shiken Haramitsu Daikomyo is standard for Takamatsu-den schools.
  8. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 11:04am

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    More likely they are saying Shiken Haramitsu Daikomyo is standard for Takamatsu-den schools.
    Probably. What does it mean?
  9. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 11:20am

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Roughly: "May everything I encounter lead to my enlightment"
  10. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 1:25pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bad credit
    Basing movements on elements is Steve Hayes misinterpretation of Ninjutsu. He may be the father of American Taijutsu, but he's considered a joke now. It's said that ninjas here owe him for bringing the material in the first place, and owe him a kick in the ass for making them have to start the art all over again to unlearn his bad habits.
    Actually, I have some of Hayes' classical material. He's well aware of the difference between what he invented and what is quote-traditional-unquote and even says the elements in classical basics are a counting system. Hayes has said that Hatsumi didn't have the same set foundational material when he started so he invented it himself, and as soon as Hatsumi released the other material he taught it side by side.

    Where he does stray is talking about elemental attitudes using Vajrayana metaphysics. The Bujinkan did have this, but not in the form of physical techniques, and now, for the most part, it's not discussed there at all publicly -- and to appear loyal, some folks like to pretend it was never there.

    It *is* still talked about to a certain extent in the Genbukan as part of the Amatsu Tatara curriculum (and I've read one reference to the idea coming up in the Jinenkan), and Hatsumi uses it in the Amatsu Tatara medicine system he teaches separately from the Bujinkan. Part of the confusion is that the names are inconsistent or Japanese tradition, where the elements for the Gogyo should actually be Chinese-style elements to be called "Gogyo." But Takamatsu apparently used this eccentric terminology himself.

    If you bring this up with some Bujinkan people it makes them extremely angry, perhaps because it hints at a larger history with some significant internal revisionism over time.
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