8/16/2007 10:24am, #111Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
Has nothing to do with anything else going on in this thread. I thought it was funny that we were just shy of 100 posts before we got an answer. I could careless about everything else.
Anyone who believes in grappling (ala submissions) in CMA is fooling everyone around them.
8/16/2007 10:40am, #112
Oh tom if there are other answer besides Dunn let me know. I see a lot of name calling and redirection not many answers.
8/16/2007 12:17pm, #113Originally Posted by It is Fake
Even with Gene's Dunn name, it's a redirection. Because Gene credentials are valid, the implication made is this somehow adds creditibility to Robert Brown. When I pressed them to be specific as to what they meant, they backtracked to the point where practically the only valid question I could ask Gene is whether he's given two seminars in Detroit.
Yet, Robert Brown's "bitch patrol" still trys to imply this in itself is enough to give some credibility to Brown's technical prowess in teaching a Chinese style grappling system that uses Japanese terms - the style of which can't be determined clearly and what can be for such a CMA is arguably a myth.Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
"Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ
"Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken
My Bullshido fan club threads:
Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
ATTN TOM KAGAN
World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
8/16/2007 1:17pm, #114
i think this thread has gone way beyond what a school review thread should be, and has uncovered enough "dirt" to warrant an actual investigation thread (was there ever an investigation thread?)
however as i didn't create this thread or discover the school, and i don't have the time to go out of state to investigate anyone, i don't feel like i should be the one to investigate (dagon? anyone local?)
the students from mr. brown's school after being unable to give reasonable or consistent answers to the questions posted, have now accused us of trolling (which is ironic, because the only trolls i have seen on this thread have all been brown's students.)
it would be very easy for brown to end this by answering these questions himself, or if he or his students were willing to engage in some friendly sparring at a throwdown (there's one coming up in new york city at the end of september in case anyone is interested.)
most if not all on this board would be happy to recognize the school as being at the very least not teaching bullshido to the students if we can actually ascertain the skills of brown or his senior students.
one way to do this is to answer some (very standard) questions that any "school of chinese martial arts" should be able to answer:
1) does your school compete in full contact san shou or lei tai? if so how have the students done? (we are looking for specific and verifiable fight records here, i.e. student x placed 3rd in y tournament in the year 200x.)
2) does your school compete in other CMA tournaments with forms or continuous sparring divisions? if so what sort of forms divisions are entered? northern? southern? long hand? short hand? weapons? also how have the students done in these?
3) what traditional chinese arts are your techniques derived from? (shaolin is not an acceptable answer, we are looking for answers such as hung ga, bagua, choy lei fut, bak mei, etc.) saying that you do "shaolin kungfu" is about as descriptive as saying you do "modern dance"
4) because grappling is taught, have any of the students (or mr brown himself) competed in any grappling tournaments such as NAGA or grappler's quest?
note - i am NOT trolling here, i am asking serious, respectful questions that any school should be able to answer... i know that i can answer ALL those questions easily if asked.
the issues of lineage, the mishmash of japanese and chinese terminology, lack of any documented training in meditation will be harder to deal with, as there is clearly some degree of bullshitting going on in that regard, and no amount of fighting ability can make up for that, however there are plenty of instructors out there who are teaching decent technique with either bullshit lineage or no lineage at all. while lying about lineage is a serious problem, i am personally more concerned with schools that teach bullshido techniques as actual "real martial arts.""Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
"When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
"Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
"Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
8/16/2007 3:31pm, #115
I agree this went to far for a school review.
All I can say is I asked that they go back to the original thread. All I got was name calling and the classic to much time on the internet response.
I tried to stop it before I was attacked. Funny thing was I was actually some what defending them on the other thread.
Oh well, I can now pass judgment "bitch patrol" sounds about right.
8/17/2007 12:06am, #116
I am not in the least bit amused by the behavior of Brown's students.
There are so, so many things in this thread I want to respond to, but I do have to get to work in the morning and can't put in the time and attention right now.
A few notes
- it's not hard at all to get good instructors to fly out to your school and teach a seminar if you tell them a few dozenstudents will pay the fee. Furthermore it smply good business to be respecful and noncritical of the school hosting your seminar.
- The excuses given for the use of Japanese terms "well Mr. Brown came up in Japanese styles"; then why in the name of Buddha's left elbow isn't his school called "School of Japanese Martial Arts"? If your kids' football coach referred to everything in hockey terms, one would hope you'd have the common sense to say "hey, wait a second, what?"
- All the babel about meditation is very clearly psuedo-mystic venere slathered over crap to make it smell less. Meditation is as much "clearing the mind of all thought and focusing (not counting, not controlling) the breath" as electrical engineering is "plugging in the reading lamp".
- None of you can tell us what style of grappling Brown tauht for years before he started paying for prvates with Dunn; this is a horrible sign. I don't think much of Dagon's grappling skills, but to be perfectly honest I do not doubt his accounting of the arm bar event at all; I have found myself in similair situations- albeit with far greater skill and experience to judge-, and have had people blather on about their ground fighting ability or what sensei so totally showed them this one time and how killer it was only to have said warrior try to apply a triangle choke without having an arm in or other such crapple-tastic failure. Two seminars and Brown's unknown grappling, yeah, you guys are all pure crapplers, period. (Prove me wrong, compete, video tape some sparring)
- You people are very bad at using the internet. Seriously, calling "troll" when nothing of the sort has taken place, well, way to go! Of course from there it was all down hill as you insensibly huddled behind each other and lobbed "lol you post too much on webz" and "u is r be TROLLZ" at people asking you real questions and leveling legitimate concerns.
- "Criticizing a dojo without being constructive is something that bothers me though. Like many critics, you have slammed the school, yet you haven't said anything about what you would do to better it if given the chance." So..... you don't read product or movie reviews because the critics involved don't bother to say how they would make it work or simply not suck? You don't really understand the concept of a review do you?
- You people have given this school a 10- that is to say "world class"- with regards to "aliveness"; you don't even know what that is!
- It's obvious you "advanced students" can't answer simple questions like "what sort of grappling have you been doing for years?" Go ask Mr. Brown, get straiht answers, it's for your won good.
Alright, I have to go to sleep.
This really isn't a review and I'm going to talk to Phrost about what can be done to export the vast majority of this toa MABS thread and to nullify this ludicrous string of 10's applied to concepts you people clearly don't comprehend.
Last edited by Stick; 8/17/2007 12:12am at .
8/17/2007 1:13am, #117
Well, Clutch you turned just like Dagon supposedly did.
Don't type words and rants you can't stand by right or wrong. You leave the posts that make you look good then, remove the accusatory posts that were unfounded.
8/17/2007 1:58am, #118
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- North of Detroit
No itisfake. I removed ALL of my posts with the exception of posts about a friends profile pic. I realized it was just ammo for the incestuous posting going on. Once I realized Tom Kagen and Dagon tag team post on sociocide as well I realized it is all a set up. Plus, I was calling ficklefinger a troll which he posts as part of his sig. Saying anybody called all people posting on this thread trolls or implied the whole thread was trolling is silly. Take another look at which posts are left.
Last edited by clutch30; 8/17/2007 2:52am at .
8/17/2007 2:17am, #119
Thanks for proving my point about hypocrite.
Dagon and Tom ganging up on
Notice when Tom started posting. I'd hardly call that ganging up.
I don't care what you forgot. I stand by what I said. Stand by your words right or wrong.
8/17/2007 5:51am, #120
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- metro Detroit area
Itisfake-I don't recall anyone ganging up on me. I also don't recall ganging up on anyone else. I tried to answer any questions sent my way. I guess they were severely lacking........
Stick-I do read movie and product reviews. I've read both good and bad. I've also read some that slam a certain product when the reviewer has obviously not done his work( check out the Detroit Free Press for some examples....ie: the review of Idiocracy). Like politics, I hear a whole lotta complaining and too little in the way of solutions........but maybe that's just me...... part of a bitch patrol..........