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  1. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 7:33pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    u know, my only gripe is that there seems to be some good discussion goin on here, and it should really be happening in one of the MABS threads instead. I hate that there's so many systema threads on here, and once and a while a good discussion happens and its hard to remember where it happened when we need to reference it

    SFGOON is doing a good job with his understanding of systema =)
  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 8:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll get back to this thread soon, but I'd like to ask the "LOLZ" type people and "If you ain't doin MuayThai/BJJ/Judo/Boxing then you ain't training!" people to due everyone a favor and not troll this thread any further. We get the point, it's well taken, and well established on this site. I for one am actually interested to discuss the differences in training, rather than just bashing and trolling.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. kingston1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 10:25pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: grappl, Systema, Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleem

    I think it was Systemavin (or someone else on here) who said a few days ago that many people "don't get" Systema, and that's why there are incompetent people out there. Would you agree with this? I don't. In fact, if a greater amount of people fail to "get" Systema I'd say that this shows it to be a less effecient/effective system as it requires more application to achieve the same results.
    Dude, even in BJJ you have people that are blue belts for 4-5 years. Same as Systema, people there for long and don't get it..

    This is because boxing, MT, BJJ gyms train hard, and if people don't get it / like it, they leave. They don't or can't pretend to be improving because the training is gruelling.
    This thing you speak of -- people in sparring realizing that they suck and don't come back -- happens in every art. I know a few people that quit BJJ because they weren't advancing, and some people quit Systema because they aren't getting it, while some stay. One of the big problems with Systema is you have few really good instructors. Vlad, of course, is one, but you also have people teaching without a good base.

    Also, unfortunately you have fanatics, and these are guys that have been doing systema for only a year and going to other schools and getting exposed. I find systema is plagued by guys who are white belt equivalent mouthing off about how great systema is and getting schooled at a MT or BJJ school, then the word spreads that Systema has been tested and failed.

    This is mainly because they can get away with being crap, as they'll never be tested adequately e.g. by someone actually trying to hit them.
    What you wrote is really uniformed and ignorant. Vlad teaches rigorously and does push students to physical limits and they do full contact sparring @ vlads.
    Last edited by kingston1; 8/11/2007 10:59pm at .
  4. kingston1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 10:52pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: grappl, Systema, Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by aaaargh
    It is hard to take Systema at all seriously with this stuff floating around out there, no matter how much people insist that the school they train at doesn't do this compliant stuff.
    Most of Systema, even in the clips, are drills. People don't hit back or fight back, they just go through the motions for demonstration purpose. The clips are for demonstration purpose, but for some odd reason, critics think they are fighting or competing in real terms. Use your brains people and be real. You can clearly see these demonstrations are not competition or aggressive situations. They are merely demonstrations of principles. Is anyone here actually intelligent enough to get this?

    I have many BJJ instructionals. Even these techniques work some times, and doesn't work othertimes. Gokor's instructionals are said to never work against a breathing opponent, but that doesn't change the outcome that his students, Manny and Karo, for example, are indeed good. I have marcello Garcia's instructional. I know people with the same instructionals, and have agreed that some moves never work in real live sparring.

    Some people need to get their head out their asses. These are demonstrations like those in any other video instructional.

    It is not competition or an aggressive situation. The retarded thing I keep coming across is the complying partner criticism. People watch Vlad's tapes and snort that the people are complying. People, (I can't believe I have to spell this out) that is the nature of any martial art demonstration including BJJ!!! Even in Jean J Machado instructionals the partner in complying.

    Why when Vlad does this merely to show techniques, or simply, which he often does, shows how to move when attacked, or techniques dealing with mere movement and multiple attackers, he is scoffed at the notice that people are complying, so therefore it can't be real, when all BJJ, wrestling, MT, etc. videos are allowed to show there techniques with complying opponents? Why can they do this, but Vlad can't?
    Last edited by kingston1; 8/11/2007 11:02pm at .
  5. kingston1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2007 11:05pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: grappl, Systema, Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ysc87
    You sure about that one?

    Well, granted, most people don't bother with incorporating lots of multiple opponent drilling these days just out of the fact that it's now a common held belief that it's retarded to give their students a false sense of security; however, multiple opponent training is still pretty universal, regardless of style
    I know a guy that did a number on 3 people at once. He is a Systema practitioner, and if I remember correctly, this was told to me by a police officer who, either handled or seen the report..
    Last edited by kingston1; 8/12/2007 12:15am at .
  6. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2007 12:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    Yes I do, and please understand as we get into this that I have a very different idea of what it means to be in shape than you likely do. I'll try to explain, what it boils down to is posture and tension control as opposed to muscle strength and body composition. (I still think hematocrit and stroke volume are t3h p0rk, though.)

    Most people are already as strong as they need to be, they just can't access that strength. As I see it from my experiences with other cultures and as a former personal trainer, westerners breathe strangely, walk and stand funny, carry odd tension in their bodies and fall back on a tense state under duress. All of these traits stand in the way of maximum human performance - either the recruitment patterns are bad, or the tension reflex stymies relaxed, fluid movement. Making things worse, the tension not only slows you down, but it exhausts the fighter prematurely as the body fights its own movement, akin to driving your car with the parking brake on. These are called inhibitory reflexes and are largely psychosomatic.

    If the above is true then disinhibition of such reflexes would be of tremendous value to any fighter or athlete. Your body would stop "putting on the brakes" when you need it to perform at it's best. The result would be faster, more efficient movement. Much of what is seen in youtube systema videos are drills for beginners that are intended to have these results. Since they're combat specific, it just looks like bad RBSD. If you're able to master tension control you'll be more effective in any sport.

    Sorry for the soliloquy.
    Quite an interesting take. I do know what you mean about tension stopping you from doing what you'd like as the "ideal" flow of motion, but I've always been of the mentality that with enough training and experience sparring, that relaxation and proper form would come. Would you not agree that simply getting used to being hit and choked would help one relax and relieve that unnecessary tension?
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2007 3:08am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Quite an interesting take. I do know what you mean about tension stopping you from doing what you'd like as the "ideal" flow of motion, but I've always been of the mentality that with enough training and experience sparring, that relaxation and proper form would come. Would you not agree that simply getting used to being hit and choked would help one relax and relieve that unnecessary tension?
    Yes, and Systema drills include being hit, choked, etc. From personal experience, they hit, choke, etc. very hard indeed. They also do other drills specifically designed to train the level of relaxation that SFGoon described.

    Put it this way: most MAs start with technique drills and conditioning and progress into sparring, with the idea that the fundamental attributes of relaxation, form, balance etc. will develop as long as the student sticks with the program.

    Systema drills are based on developing these attributes from day 1. At this level, the system includes a wide range of very unusual exercises geared towards fear control, sensitivity and movement training, etc. Techniques, conditioning, sparring and so-on are seen as ways of developing/testing the attributes, rather than the other way around.

    The misinterpretations start when people who don't understand this process watch video clips of Systema attribute training - the unusual stuff - and assume that it's some kind of technical demo. This is missing the point on a major scale.
  8. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2007 9:54am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sure - repetition always leads to relaxation. But that relaxation is specific to the motion learned. Once a new stressor is introduced the body will tend to revert back to it's tense state. There is a difference between specific relaxation and systemic (whole body) relaxation. The aim of many systema drills (particularly those involving breathing) is to produce constant, uninterrupted relaxation throughout the entire body irrespective of stress levels.
  9. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2007 12:03pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A few other tidbits I'd like to add;

    The mechanism of action for producing efficient movement is well understood by neurologists. There is a group of nerves in the prefrontal lobe of the brain called "motor neurons." This brain pathway constantly refines movements, making them more efficient the more they are practiced. However, this adaptation is highly contextual and specific to the motion learned under the conditions learned. Once a new stressor is added it is fairly probable that tension will be re-introduced to the movement. One such stressor that is commonly observed in athletes is the tendency of boxers to loose the "crispness" of their movements in the later rounds of a match, the stressor in this case being the incomprehensible exhaustion experienced by these athletes.

    By teaching tension control as a stand alone skill set, the athletes' ability to relax is extended beyond context specific circumstances, and in some instances will allow the athlete to relax irrespective of stress levels. This skill also reduces the amount of time needed to "master" a particular movement, as the tension associated with a new set of movements can be done away with, right away.

    Finally, realize that the progenitors of systema, the Soviets, were brilliant reverse-engineers. Applying this modified scientific method to elite athletes, they were able to understand a few minor yet critical factors in human movement - specifically tension control (both the induction and reduction of tension, in addition to holding high tension in single parts of the body,) proper breathing (filling the whole of the lungs evenly which has a potent effect on body tension,) and oddly enough, an appropriate level of flexibility in the hip flexors. Proper breath control and range of motion in the hip flexors are rapidly apparent in an individuals' posture.

    I have applied these principles repeatedly as a fitness trainer. By convincing my clients to allow their bellies to protrude slightly rather than "sucking in" and stretching their hip flexors, I can often completely correct a clients' posture in a few minutes. They also see a rapid increase in strength and endurance. To be fair, these principles come from Pavel Tsatsouline (who is an admirer and friend of Vladimir Vasiliev and was unable to withstand a punch from Mikhail Ryabko.)

    On a personal level, the INSTANT I saw what systema really was I was hooked, completely. I was taught by a Russian friend of mine who piqued my curiosity when he told me how pissed at Vladimir he was for introducing systema to North Americans. (I had only brought it up to make fun of him.) I asked him to show me so he gave me a punch. I went down cringing, afraid I was going to cry or **** myself (or both,) despite the fact that I had hardened my stomach. He just laughed at me. This man is slightly smaller than me. I'm 5'7".

    edit; please don't take my use of phrases like "may reduce the likelyhood of" or "in some instances" to mean I'm unsure of myself. On a subjective level this is all factual to me - I just have to be intellectually fair in my debating and not assume everyone else has the same experiences as me.
    Last edited by SFGOON; 8/11/2007 12:16pm at .
  10. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2007 3:20pm


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some good discussions on tension. No matter what your style, play around with it. For example if someone grabs you in training, tense up, inhale, then sudddenly exhale and breath out, whilst performing a movement? You will be surprised at the results. Then try the reverse!!!! You can apply this principle to punching, bag work, wrestling.

    Vin
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