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  1. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 3:43am

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    NSLightsOut, nice dodge, it isn't a strawman, because it isn't an arguement. It's a question you don't want to answer, and Eddie Bravo's accomplishments have literally nothing to do with whether or not he's right.

    Over time, I've rolled with a number of guys who never trained with the gi, or who do as much as possible to avoid rolling in it. Some with more training than me, some with less, some equal.

    None of them have impressed me all that much, in hindsight. All have relied more on attributes (strength, speed, stamina) than technique. When I've been submitted, it's usually been by something gimmicky that I haven't been exposed to, like the twister, that I've never been caught with since.
    I am very weak for my weight. If I ever win, against anyone, it's because of technique. I haven't worn a gi on any consistent basis in 5 years, and I plan to never wear one again. I used to like to whine about how guys who shouldn't be as good as me, in far better shape/bigger/stronger, would give me trouble in grappling due to athleticism. Then I realized what a pathetic fucking whiner I was being and decided I needed to be in better shape.

    Another thing. When I started grappling, my brother started at the same time. We took different paths. He wrestled, developed his positioning, lifted weights, did road work, and became a far better athlete than me, and this in addition to the same training I was doing, but because I focused on techniques that required no gi and little strength, instead of wasting my time wearing a gi, I was always able to beat him a majority of the time in no-gi grappling. My attention to technique came not from gi training, but from PAYING FUCKING ATTENTION TO TECHNIQUE.

    I CANNOT FUCKING STAND IT when gi guys claim that somehow, without the mystical attributes of the gi, it is impossible to be technical. **** THAT. Go find a cock and sit on it.

    Also, why aren't Judo olympic medalists also, automatically the Greco-Roman medalists, since their technique is obvioulsy better due to their utilization of the holy cloth?

    Given his wrestling and strength advantages I thing he finds the gi a great equalizer.
    No, given his lack of experience in a gi, he sucks at it. He will stop sucking, but not immediately, not even for some time. There are many gi dependent submissions (and submissions in general for that matter) that he is unfamiliar with, and the gi gives the illusion of making him work harder on his technique in general, when in fact, it's just his lack of experience in the gi that does that.

    Eddie Bravo had Koscheck and his instructor, Camarillo, on his radio show and hashed this issue out:

    -Wrestlers transitioning to the gi will OBVIOUSLY get caught in submissions they have no idea about like gi chokes and positions the don't know how to handle, like the guard with handles everywhere for your opponent to grab

    -They think the gi is great for the same reason anyone getting into BJJ does, their instructor tells them so, and to the wrestler, "proves" it by letting some blue tap them with a gi dependent submission
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 7:08am

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     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracky McSlugHoot

    No, given his lack of experience in a gi, he sucks at it. He will stop sucking, but not immediately, not even for some time. There are many gi dependent submissions (and submissions in general for that matter) that he is unfamiliar with, and the gi gives the illusion of making him work harder on his technique in general, when in fact, it's just his lack of experience in the gi that does that.


    -They think the gi is great for the same reason anyone getting into BJJ does, their instructor tells them so, and to the wrestler, "proves" it by letting some blue tap them with a gi dependent submission

    Brock Larson is a BJJ brown belt under Dave Camarillo with a 22-1 MMA record and will possibly be the WEC champion soon, so I wouldn't say he's inexperienced or doesn't know what he's talking about.

    If he says gi training helps his technique especially for MMA then he's in a far better position than you or Eddie Bravo to give his opinion.
  3. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 7:05pm

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the problem with the Gi is that most people think that the Gi is what makes their Jiu-Jitsu technical and it is not. It's the Jiu-Jitsu that makes your Jiu-Jitsu technical.

    The Gi provides the ability to build certain attributes up that help you in being a technical player. One being the amount of grips you can use and how easy it is to move others around if they are wearing a Gi. It forces you to have a good solid base and great posture. Also, having such a large friction area forces you to rely on proper technique for escaping submissions. Lot's of people use the sweat and the low skin on skin friction as a means of escaping holds No-Gi. It's like pulling your arm out of an armbar without stacking first. With sweat and less friction, it's works really well. Without those factors, if you try pulling your arm out from an armbar, you end up helping your opponent get the armbar.

    The same, however can be said with No-Gi. Offensively, because of the low resistance factor, you have to be on your game. Like with the armbar again, you have to be very technical; knee's tight, hips high as close to their shoulder as possible, the arm welded to your chest, etc. If not, they will just slip out. Also, because of the lack of friction, it tends to be a lot faster which means you have to be faster in your transitions which helps.

    Myself, I don't like the Gi much but if I didn't go to the Gi classes, I would only be doing Jits about 3 sometimes 4 times a week. Also, I take the Gi for what it's worth. Just like any tool, it can help improve attributes. If I want to work on the squeezing power of my knees and legs for armbars, I can do it while training with others, or go to the gym and work that particular machine or even get a ThighMaster and use it (which, I do have, thanks Aesopian). Now the tool alone isn't going to do anything, it's how you use that tool in relation to that training that counts.

    An example of this is if I want to work my escapes from the armbar, triangle, omaplata. These three submissions are the basis of submissions in the guard. They are also escapes most often in No-Gi situations using the sweat and low level of friction a lot as well. Now lets say me and my buddy, who are No-Gi freaks, want to work our escapes more. We can use the Gi as a tool that reduces friction and so we work on using better technique in our escapes instead of using the sweat to pull out. When we transition to No-Gi, we may have the edge in our escapes because we trained them in a situation where we couldn't just use the sweat to pull out.

    On the other side of the coin, me and my buddy are diehard BJJ traditionalists trying to move into the 21st century with different training ideas. We want to work our offense for the big three (armbar, triangle, omaplata). We want to be as good as possible and also make sure we are being technical with our submissions as well as keeping everything tight (squeezing the knee's together; etc.). We decide to take off our Gi's and try our submissions. We notice that it's harder to get the submission with all the sweat and less friction. We also notice that we need to use different grips and setups. We also notice that we where not as technical with the submissions as we thought because they we are slipping out of the submissions from each other with ease. We realize that we are not applying enough squeezing pressure with our knees with the armbar, triangle and omaplata which is required to keep the move tight as well as apply it to it's intended results.

    In the above situations, The No-Gi guys used the Gi as a tool to evaluate and troubleshoot some problems they had with their submission defense and on the filip side, the Gi guys used rolling without the Gi as a tool to help them with some offensive issues.

    Now lets take one last thing into account. A No-Gi (sub wrestling, MMA) competition is just that, No-Gi. A Gi (BJJ, Sambo style) is a Gi competition. You still need to train with your Gi for a Gi competition and without the Gi in No-Gi. It's just like using tools such as weight machines (or gasp, my tightmaster). I could use them all day every day but I still need to get my ass on the mat and train for whatever I'm doing or none of those tools will help me any.

    That's how I look at the whole Gi vs No-Gi thing.
  4. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 7:39pm

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Brock Larson is a BJJ brown belt under Dave Camarillo with a 22-1 MMA record and will possibly be the WEC champion soon, so I wouldn't say he's inexperienced or doesn't know what he's talking about.

    If he says gi training helps his technique especially for MMA then he's in a far better position than you or Eddie Bravo to give his opinion.
    Argh, I thought you were talking about Brock Lesnar, LOL. Regardless, he's Camarillo's student, so he's just parroting Camarillo's position. Also, he's in no better positon to say anything, because he can't say what caused him to be good at grappling, the gi, or just grappling in general.
  5. Hands is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 9:03pm


     Style: Mongolian

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The way I look at it is: if you train gi a lot, you require a gi to pull moves off. Training no-gi has the benefit of techniques working on people who aren't wearing gis.

    An added benefit of no-gi is that when some crazed lunatic wearing a gi assaults you on t3h str33ts, your no-gi training will still work. The thought of "thank god, the guy is wearing a gi" will not enter your mind either.
  6. maurice is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 11:05pm


     Style: Mo-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Camarillo is extremely pro-gi, so it's not terribly surprising that 2 of his students agree with him.

    I wonder how much time Monson, Sherk, the Team Quest guys, the Miletich guys, and Greg Jackson's guys spend in a gi.

    Isn't Bravo teaching at Couture's gym nowadays?
    Last edited by maurice; 8/04/2007 11:09pm at .
  7. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 11:26pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hands
    The way I look at it is: if you train gi a lot, you require a gi to pull moves off. Training no-gi has the benefit of techniques working on people who aren't wearing gis.

    An added benefit of no-gi is that when some crazed lunatic wearing a gi assaults you on t3h str33ts, your no-gi training will still work. The thought of "thank god, the guy is wearing a gi" will not enter your mind either.
    The gi was originally designed to simulate the clothing worn by the average Japanese citizen, one hundred plus years ago.

    So you're right and you're wrong.

    The dogi was originally created to be more durable than street clothes so practitioners didn't have to spend a fortune on clothes. Most people, to this day, wear some type of clothing.

    With the advent of t-shirts and man-made fabrics, clothing is much lighter than it used to be, and consequently less durable as an offensive tool for you to use against your opponent on the street.

    That said, I've choked people out while they're wearing t-shirts. The t-shirt usually doesn't survive the encounter.

    However, I refuse to fight any man wearing a thong, so your statement does have some merit.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  8. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 11:29pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I kind of like both gi and no gi. They are different games for sure, playing wrist/lapel grips on gi and elbow/neck no gi, and many other differences. My school which trains mostly gi cross-trains with a school of MMA fighters who do no gi. It's a great blend for me, and I will pursue training both venues. My game is evolving into working on fundamental things that translate well to both environments and is turning into a good BJJ/wrestling blend.

    Bravo's pretty funny - he has the whole big writeup on the gi vs. no gi thing in his book, and he is avid no gi. However, he himself trains no gi with gi pants, knee pads, and those tube things under the gi. For being no gi, he's suited up below the waist more than anyone I've seen in a gi, to help him with more friction for grips for his half guard and rubber guard game.

    Camarillo' s strength is BJJ / Judo blend - both of which are highly gi dependant, so his position is no surprise.

    From what I hear Marcelo Garcia likes both gi and no gi. He sure has a sick no gi game, that's for sure.

    I guess this topic is real big to some people, but I'm really not that opinionated about it. I like both, and I think as the whole grappling world evolves it's going more that way anyway.
  9. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 12:48am

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's my final word on the value for no-gi/MMA of training with a gi. If you want to force yourself to be more technical, wear a gi against people who aren't wearing one. My instructor does this all the time (however, I am not a sycophant, and am quite willing to argue these same points with him as with you fags) and it does slow him down and make it easier for me to have a chance at submitting him (although he also uses it to his own advantage for a bunch of things), however, IMO, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with ANYTHING other than the fact that I have extra handles. He isn't more technical with the gi on, he just has a harder time. It doesn't force him to be better, it just makes the same techniques he would normally use less effective while increasing the number of techniques at his disposal a little, and making my stalling and grips more effective.

    By the definitions of the gi proponents, I'm sure it would force one to be "more technical" if they had one or both hands tied behind their back, but it wouldn't prepare them for MMA, where they're going to use both hands, any better.
  10. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 1:21am

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chingythingy
    I kind of like both gi and no gi. They are different games for sure, playing wrist/lapel grips on gi and elbow/neck no gi, and many other differences. My school which trains mostly gi cross-trains with a school of MMA fighters who do no gi. It's a great blend for me, and I will pursue training both venues. My game is evolving into working on fundamental things that translate well to both environments and is turning into a good BJJ/wrestling blend.
    I'm in the same boat, I don't like Gi much but I don't mind doing it oddly enough. It's a great way to cut weight, that's for sure; without having all the sweat dripping out of your plastic bag that is.

    Bravo's pretty funny - he has the whole big writeup on the gi vs. no gi thing in his book, and he is avid no gi. However, he himself trains no gi with gi pants, knee pads, and those tube things under the gi. For being no gi, he's suited up below the waist more than anyone I've seen in a gi, to help him with more friction for grips for his half guard and rubber guard game.
    Yeah, I was a bit curious about that to. But he does make a point about it in his book. Basically, the Gi top is the main factor in a match. The bottom does offer help with passing the guard but you don't use the Gi pants for handles the way you do the sleaves nor do you apply chokes with it like with the collar. Myself, I wear knee supports with neoprene padding. It allows it to provide support to the knee while adding some extra padding for takedowns; without being a big bulky knee pad. I also wear Thai ankle/instep supports. They do help a bit with Rubber Guard and general gripping as well. You can wear those in BJJ, Sub Grap, and MMA as well. In that regards, the Gi pants really only add a stronger friction point to your grappling wear as the Gi top adds various collar/sleave grips as well as chokes and choke setups.

    On another note, the Thai ankle/instep supports are a good alternative to wrestling shoes as well for those of us who want more traction but less of a heal hook handle.

    Camarillo' s strength is BJJ / Judo blend - both of which are highly gi dependant, so his position is no surprise.
    Yeah, no question about that. I remember the part of his book wear he talks about Eddie Bravo's point of view on the issue saying that you need the Gi to learn the right way to do the moves and get technical, then you can take it off. Hmmm, I wonder was Karo Parisyan thinks about the subject? I personally don't buy that, that would mean all the wrestlers out there as well as the No-Gi guys out there who have never done grappling with the Gi are not quite technical. Anyways, the fact that he was thrown in a Judo Gi while he was still wetting the bed, shows what position he takes on it. I will give him credit though, he did show some good No-Gi grappling against BJ Penn.

    Camarillo's next book is supposed to address his Judo/BJJ system in a completely No-Gi enviroment. I curious to see what he says about in his book and how similar his No-Gi Judo is to Karo's.

    On a side note, for those who read Camarillo's book; did you think his Gi vs No-Gi example (the one where he talks about tapping out MMA guys numerous times) a little stupid? That's like me bragging out tapping out the first timers to class even though I have over 2 years of BJJ under me. I doubt is was the Gi that helped him with that. May have had something to do with the Judo he was doing since he could walk and the BJJ he had been doing for years. Anyways, that was just something that kind of bugged me for a while and I finally found a venue to get it off my chest.
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