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  1. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 1:00pm

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by the yellow dart
    When you're fighting Horn in RINGS, which as I recall, didn't allow people to get punched in the head
    Rings didn't allow people to get punched in the head /on the ground/. Full options were allowed in standup, which is all that mattered since, as I noted, Randy didn't take the fight to the ground and spent the entire match beating Horn up in the standup.

    The only reason he stayed on his feet so long in his fight with Sylvia was because he couldn't do anything on the ground either, and so grinded out a boring, standing decision with one of MMA's slowest strikers. He has proved little to nothing on his feet.
    You're right, knocking down and soundly winning every standup exchange with Sylvia proved nothing on the feet. After all, lots of other people have done that! Oh, wait, no they haven't.

    I'm also not sure why you think Couture is so much better at wrestling than Monson. Neither did much on the ground vs. Sylvia. Couture couldn't even finish Sylvia off when he had his back.
    I'm not sure you understand the difference between "wrestling" and "submission grappling". Couture is a vastly better /wrestler/ than Monson in any venue, and the Sylvia match demonstrates this by the fact that he was able to take down Sylvia pretty much at will while Monson was only able to manage it once. Since the point of this argument was me saying that Gonzaga is unlikely to be able to take Couture down or keep it on the feet if Couture decides to take him down, their /takedown performance/ vs Sylvia is what is relevant, not what either of them were able to accomplish /on the ground/. Likewise, Gonzaga's /takedown ability versus good wrestlers/ is what is relevant, not your irrelevant and retarded example of him being able to mount Werdum in a fight he lost.

    Find me an example of Randy fighting a top-level BJJ guy who actually uses it. You can argue BELFORT !!!1111!111!! all day, but Belfort has almost never used his BJJ in competition, with fewer subs than even Randy to his credit. Randy can't hang with top-level BJJ guys, and its always been one of his major problems. We don't know how Gonzaga fares against wrestlers, but we do know how Randy does against bigger, nastier submissions experts and guys who are at least decent at BJJ, weigh, oh around 250, and actually know how to strike as well.
    I already said that Randy has suspect submission defense. Which is why I stated in my first post that if he can't outstrike Gonzaga and has to take him down, then the match becomes very interesting and Gonzaga may tap him. If he /does/ outstrike Gonzaga, which is perfectly possible since Randy has good standup despite your retarded claims to the contrary, then I think it's going to be a five-round decision for Randy because Gonzaga is unlikely to be able to take him down. If you'd like to actually argue any of these points rather than groundlessly claiming Randy has bad standup, ignoring examples to the contrary, and arguing that Gonzaga can take him down because he mounted Werdum once, please feel free.
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  2. poet is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 3:18pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dear Yellow Fart,
    please give it up.
    You are losing a unanimous decision and it isn't even close.
  3. the yellow dart is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 4:56pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    You're right, knocking down and soundly winning every standup exchange with Sylvia proved nothing on the feet. After all, lots of other people have done that! Oh, wait, no they haven't.
    Yes, with all of the standout strikers Sylvia has fought! Hell, do you remember the first AA fight where Sylvia got knocked to the ground and then leg-locked in less than a minute? And that was a healthy Sylvia. Randy outstruck a Tim Sylvia with 3 bulging disks in his back. Despite even that, Randy couldn't finish him either!

    I'm not sure you understand the difference between "wrestling" and "submission grappling". Couture is a vastly better /wrestler/ than Monson in any venue, and the Sylvia match demonstrates this by the fact that he was able to take down Sylvia pretty much at will while Monson was only able to manage it once. Since the point of this argument was me saying that Gonzaga is unlikely to be able to take Couture down or keep it on the feet if Couture decides to take him down, their /takedown performance/ vs Sylvia is what is relevant, not what either of them were able to accomplish /on the ground/. Likewise, Gonzaga's /takedown ability versus good wrestlers/ is what is relevant, not your irrelevant and retarded example of him being able to mount Werdum in a fight he lost.
    I would sincerely disagree with your analysis of Monson vs. Couture. When both were in their prime, Monson was far and away better at submission wrestling. At one point, if the ADCC championships are to be considered the premiere submission grappling events, Monson was the best in the world. Randy was almost qualified in Olympic wrestling, but wasn't able to make the cut. While both are good, I think Monson has proved himself better in the field of submission grappling. Also, Monson was absolutely one-dimensional with next to nothing in the field of standup fighting, meaning Sylvia could jab all night. Randy simply had to force Sylvia to guard at more than just takedowns and he was able to secure a boring decision victory.

    Also, I wouldn't call being able to take down and mount someone who is one of the better submission grapplers in the world an "irreverent" point, especially when done in MMA.

    I already said that Randy has suspect submission defense. Which is why I stated in my first post that if he can't outstrike Gonzaga and has to take him down, then the match becomes very interesting and Gonzaga may tap him. If he /does/ outstrike Gonzaga, which is perfectly possible since Randy has good standup despite your retarded claims to the contrary, then I think it's going to be a five-round decision for Randy because Gonzaga is unlikely to be able to take him down. If you'd like to actually argue any of these points rather than groundlessly claiming Randy has bad standup, ignoring examples to the contrary, and arguing that Gonzaga can take him down because he mounted Werdum once, please feel free.
    I think I will, given that my claims aren't exactly groundless when Randy is only able to grind out decisions on his feet against injured fighters or people he fought 7+ years ago, often in different weight classes than the one he is in now, and definitely not when he has been outweighed by the amount that Gonzaga does. The Barnett example is one of the best here, where we find Randy can't compete with large grapplers who have decent stand-up. They are very similar.

    Dear Yellow Fart,
    please give it up.
    You are losing a unanimous decision and it isn't even close.
    If this is true then why is Gonzaga the favorite to win this match, according to major betting sites?

    http://www.bodog.com/sports-betting/...rtial-arts.jsp
  4. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 9:16pm

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by the yellow dart
    Yes, with all of the standout strikers Sylvia has fought! Hell, do you remember the first AA fight where Sylvia got knocked to the ground and then leg-locked in less than a minute?
    Yes, I do. Remember the more recent second and third fights where Sylvia knocked AA out and then outstruck him over the course of five rounds?

    And that was a healthy Sylvia. Randy outstruck a Tim Sylvia with 3 bulging disks in his back.
    That actually has very little effect on your ability to strike, although it probably did play a role in Tim's (lack of) takedown defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    I'm not sure you understand the difference between "wrestling" and "submission grappling". [...] Since the point of this argument was me saying that Gonzaga is unlikely to be able to take Couture down or keep it on the feet if Couture decides to take him down, their /takedown performance/ vs Sylvia is what is relevant, not what either of them were able to accomplish /on the ground/.
    Quote Originally Posted by the yellow dart
    I would sincerely disagree with your analysis of Monson vs. Couture. When both were in their prime, Monson was far and away better at submission wrestling. [...] While both are good, I think Monson has proved himself better in the field of submission grappling.
    Jesus, your reading comprehension is terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Likewise, Gonzaga's /takedown ability versus good wrestlers/ is what is relevant, not your irrelevant and retarded example of him being able to mount Werdum in a fight he lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by the yellow dart
    Also, I wouldn't call being able to take down and mount someone who is one of the better submission grapplers in the world an "irreverent" point, especially when done in MMA.
    A) It's not relevant because, although he's easily better at submissions than Randy, Werdum is nowhere near as accomplished at takedowns and defending takedowns, so Gonzaga's ability to take him down has little bearing on his ability to take Randy down

    B) the only thing sadder than attempting a spelling/grammar burn is attempting a spelling/grammar burn and /failing/. Kill yourself.
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  5. the yellow dart is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 11:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Yes, I do. Remember the more recent second and third fights where Sylvia knocked AA out and then outstruck him over the course of five rounds?
    Yes, I do, where AA tentatively went into both fights trying not to lose and still did, showing that him beating Sylvia in the first showed just how poor Sylvia can be standing up.

    A) It's not relevant because, although he's easily better at submissions than Randy, Werdum is nowhere near as accomplished at takedowns and defending takedowns, so Gonzaga's ability to take him down has little bearing on his ability to take Randy down
    God forbid someone make a mistake, and I'm really not sure what you mean by a spelling or grammar burn, especially since I didn't notice you making one.
    I think my point stands regardless, as I still think Gonzaga will be able to overpower the MUCH smaller Randy into a takedown. Gonzaga was easily able to take Werdum down early and often, and I think we might see something similar, since it seems Gonzaga's standup is at least decent, and able to force mistakes.

    B) the only thing sadder than attempting a spelling/grammar burn is attempting a spelling/grammar burn and /failing/. Kill yourself.
    I would argue that holding a candle for an old man who is past his prime, being heavily bet against, and arguing that WRESTLING RULEZZZZZZZ is a little bit sadder. I guess when all you know about MMA is about how awesome DA ICEMAN and DA NATURAL are and how much of your assholes you can rimjob without paying attention to anything that approaches general fact, its easy to make your arguments.
  6. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2007 11:22pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    seems to me, a bet is in order....u guys should just agree to disagree, and then bet each other a friendly amount on ur respective choices, set it up somehow with someone trustworthy, and paypal the winner
    =)
  7. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2007 1:00am

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by the yellow dart
    Yes, I do, where AA tentatively went into both fights trying not to lose and still did, showing that him beating Sylvia in the first showed just how poor Sylvia can be standing up.
    I do enjoy how Randy beating Sylvia is entirely due to his back injury, Randy losing to Chuck has nothing to do with the messy divorce he was going through, Arlovski losing to Sylvia is entirely due to him being too tentative and has nothing to do with Sylvia's skill level, An d in general external factors only count when you want them to.

    I think my point stands regardless, as I still think Gonzaga will be able to overpower the MUCH smaller Randy into a takedown. Gonzaga was easily able to take Werdum down early and often, and I think we might see something similar, since it seems Gonzaga's standup is at least decent, and able to force mistakes.
    This is entirely possible; I don't think it will happen, but it's well within the realm of possibility. "Gonzaga mounted Werdum so he'll take down Couture" is a retarded argument, though.

    I would argue that holding a candle for an old man who is past his prime, being heavily bet against, and arguing that WRESTLING RULEZZZZZZZ is a little bit sadder. I guess when all you know about MMA is about how awesome DA ICEMAN and DA NATURAL are and how much of your assholes you can rimjob without paying attention to anything that approaches general fact, its easy to make your arguments.
    I would argue that making arguments that have nothing to do with anything I've said and displaying a complete lack of reading comprehension are far sadder than anything I've said in defense of Randy, who I don't even think is going to win.
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  8. the yellow dart is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2007 10:12am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    I do enjoy how Randy beating Sylvia is entirely due to his back injury, Randy losing to Chuck has nothing to do with the messy divorce he was going through, Arlovski losing to Sylvia is entirely due to him being too tentative and has nothing to do with Sylvia's skill level, An d in general external factors only count when you want them to.
    Last time I checked, divorces don't keep you from being able to do things physically in the ring. You can train through a divorce, fight through a divorce, do practically anything you want to since it is, for the most part, a mental game. Having 3 bulging disks would have a rather significant and immediate affect on the way someone fights in a manner that having a divorce does not. And hell, if Randy can't deal with a divorce, then its kind of sad that he got beat by Belfort when Belfort's sister had just been kidnapped and murdered (even if it was by cut).

    Also, the tentativeness of Arlovski seems to be repetitive given his absolutely shitacular performance against Werdum where he should have been able to outstrike Werdum the entire time, and instead opted to just trade slaps for 3 rounds.


    I've said in defense of Randy, who I don't even think is going to win.
    You could have fooled me.
  9. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2007 10:27am

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by the yellow dart
    You could have fooled me.
    Not surprising, since you've consistently demonstrated you have difficulty actually understanding what you're reading.
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  10. the yellow dart is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2007 10:54am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    By the way, I do want to clarify that I do admire Randy quite a bit. He is arguably one of the top 5 wrestlers in MMA (behind Koscheck, Hughes, Sherk, and Barnett) and definitely can hold his own striking. The main problem for Randy, however, comes from the fact that he hasn't fought anyone of any merit and won in a long time. The last legitimate contender he has fought, in my opinion, is Liddell.

    You may now argue that Sylvia is underrated, Arlovski is underrated, etc. But the fact is that the UFC HW division has been extremely weak ever since Couture became a light heavyweight and Barnett was banned from the UFC for steroids. The UFC HW division has been a running joke with boring champs that do the minimum to keep the title. Before Couture, I would argue that Sylvia hadn't fought a top-ranked HW since Ricco in 2003. I think Couture did a good thing by coming back and beating Sylvia and at least restoring some dignity to the championship. The problem is, I think Sylvia is as far as it goes. I don't think that Randy, who at 44 is far over the hill, can overmatch someone like Gonzaga who plays heavily against all of Couture's weaknesses, especially on the gound. I think Gonzaga will simply overwhelm and finish Couture fairly quickly, as Couture has done what he needed to do. Now lets all just sit back and be thankful that Couture is not fighting a normal Cro-Cop.
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