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  1. Abusivemelon is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 6:39pm


     Style: Lethargy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    So, if I understand you correctly, you either don't understand what this sub-forum is intended for or are just trolling here.

    Every thread in the CMA sub-forum is not meant to be used for posts such as yours to rehash the same tired argument. If you are curious, read the stickies and/or other threads in this sub-forum for some perspectives on your issue from the CMA point of view. If you have a new perspective on this issue, also feel free to post in in a relevant CMA thread which directly addresses the issue you brought up. This thread isn't it.

    It seems to me as if YMAS is the sub-forum you want. You'll occasionally find me joining in which such trolling in those areas, too. :smile: I have to warn you though, Virus has the particular argument gimmick you're using pretty much covered already.
    Sorry first time for me discussing this sort of thing in the CMA forum, the usual way is YMAS where you just scream insults at the guy till the thread changes shape ie the Paraplege thread in trollshido. CMA POV? So saying give up and do MMA is not valid here I assume.

    I feel if you wish to have alive training with Wing Chun then cross training is the best option as you get all the Chun non-diluted plus alive training through MMA.

    Is this wrong here as well? Do my posts have to be constructive and polite or MAPesque as it is known?
    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101
    Dude, whassup? Did they freeze your dick then accidentally use it to cool down a thimble full of water? Or, did you mis-spell crayonist? You know, the guy who makes sure the wax crayons you use aren't too sharp in case you decide to do the decent thing and kill yourself.
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  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 6:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Abusivemelon
    Sorry first time for me discussing this sort of thing in the CMA forum, the usual way is YMAS where you just scream insults at the guy till the thread changes shape ie the Paraplege thread in trollshido. CMA POV? So saying give up and do MMA is not valid here I assume.
    Oh, I get it now. You don't actually read threads and prefer to post before you do so, allowing you to see your own words in a thread. IOW, you're a sycophant of Virus. Gotcha.


    There's a sub-forum dedicated to straight up grappling. Any grappler worth their salt knows at least a portion of what they do can be counter productive in an MMA environment. Any particular reason you're not trolling that sub-forum with this same tired argument?

    There's a sub-forum dedicated to straight up striking. Any striker worth their salt knows at least a portion of what they do can be counter productive in an MMA environment. Any particular reason you're not trolling that sub-forum with this same tired argument?


    Quote Originally Posted by Abusivemelon
    Is this wrong here as well? Do my posts have to be constructive and polite or MAPesque as it is known?
    Be as big a dick as you want. However, IIF will move your posts if you don't know what you are talking about with regards to CMA.

    BTW, there's also a Japanese style sub-forum (which includes Judo, too). Any particular reason you're not trolling that sub-forum with the same tired argument?
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/06/2007 7:01pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 7:42pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    Yeah, kickboxing.
    Yeah.. but no.

    All standup styles involving getting punched in the face look like kickboxing to you in the same way that all submission grappling looks like Judo to me. But in reality, you've got different 'live' standup styles just like you've got different grappling styles. Yes, real live styles borrow off each other. But no, this doesn't lead to all MMA pros looking like that do exactly the same thing.
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  4. Fa Jing is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 11:07pm


     Style: Brazilian JiuJitsu, Wing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i got a question for all the internal MA guys, how is wing chun different from arts like bagua, taiji, hsing i? I mean fundamentally, there are all different types of kicks, punches, locks ect in wing chun so how is any art different from the next? if this doesnt make any sense im sorry just dont know how to really explain it.
  5. Tomas Drgon is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 11:46pm


     Style: n/a

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How to save _ing _un...
    To me as an ex chunner this is actually an interesting question.
    Right next to "Why to save _ing _un...".

    What do we/you want to save? The training method? The principles? The forms?
    Shall we treat it as endangered species and guard it from the pressure of natural selection?
    Shall we try to save the legacy of Yip Man? Leung Ting? William Cheung? Emin Boztepe?
    Do these people really need our help? Or do we need to save it FROM THEM?

    The last three, and I'm not sure about Yip Man, made _ing _un into a business venture. The Amway of martial arts. Amway products have to be sold by pressure salesmen because if you put them up on a shelf in a grocery store, right next to better, cheaper and more effective products, they would not sell.

    And _ing _un just wouldn't sell without pressure sales. Whether it is getting into shape, learning how to hit, learning how to clinch, learning how to avoid takedowns, there are better and more effective ways.

    You may want to seek to save it for sentimental, cultural, family reasons. Not necessarily a rational decision, but not invalid. People have all kinds of strange hobbies. Some like to revive stone age crafts like chipping flints etc, some like to reenact civil war battles, some like to reenact old TV series and whatnot. I'd say _ing _un is still better than the last one. So there you have it, I said something positive about _ing _un!

    Tomas
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2007 12:30am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know what's funny about this? I don't think it needs saving.

    However, like many arts, it needs to clean house. There are a TON of people who say they practice it. They don't. (Frankly, this isn't much different at this point than the people who say they do "boxing" but are really in a "boxercise" type class or the like.) Telling people to "spar spar spar" while it may be worthwhile, won't do much for the style. But how does anyone really know if they do the art or not?

    Groups of people in the art used to make friends, get together, and BANG. They didn't do it to win or lose but to "compare hands". They don't seem to do this much anymore. And if they do, it doesn't seem to be consistent. I've written about this before in this forum: I look at the art and see it as being "out of balance". There is very little someone in the middle of no where can point to as reference points and compare what is good or bad under a rule set where what is supposed to be trained can be showcased clearly. I think this comes from isolationist, or (dare I say?) ill guided ELITEST thinking - and really isn't all that unique to one art.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/07/2007 12:35am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2007 12:53am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, I'm debating whether to move this to YMAS. Tom's Virus and Abusive's posts are making it easy to do. Look I don't want YMAS **** in here. That simple.

    We can argue effective training methods all day. Guess what? I'll agree with most MMAers and say go train at a good MMA school.

    This isn't going to be a safe haven per se. Don't believe me? Take a look at the EBMAS thread.

    Thing is we will keep the line closer to the vest. A CMAer is going to take criticism better from us than a "BJJ Jihad" crew member.

    If you want to say Wing Chun is dumbest **** ever cool. Explain why and give reasons of its poor (insert reason here). Doing **** like Virus TEE HEEE kickboxing is not welcome.
  8. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2007 3:47am

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     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Yeah.. but no.

    All standup styles involving getting punched in the face look like kickboxing to you in the same way that all submission grappling looks like Judo to me. But in reality, you've got different 'live' standup styles just like you've got different grappling styles. Yes, real live styles borrow off each other. But no, this doesn't lead to all MMA pros looking like that do exactly the same thing.
    Quoting Matt Thornton is a bit like asking a customer if they're sure all their computer's cables are connected: Most will roll their eyes because, of course, they did this hours ago, they didn't wait twenty minutes on hold to have their intelligence insulted, thank you very much.

    But it's not that rare for the solution to the call to be exactly that.

    You are that customer, cullion.





    But isn't ALL just up to the individual.

    There are no superior delivery systems are there?

    There is a proper way to perform a rear naked choke that will allow you to achive the desired results as quickly and efficently as possible. This is simply a reality. Likewise, we there is a proper way to throw a right cross. Their may be many variations of 'how' it is thrown. . .this is 'style' and every boxer will have his own. But the fundamental body mechanics, such as rotation of the hips, are based on the laws of gravity and motion, and this is the delivery system.

    Whether people choose to acknowledge that reality does not change the truism.

    As an example, everyone who teaches functional ground fighting these days is incorporating the guard, mount, etc. They may call it Submission wrestling, but, it's the same delivery system....
    ...Let me give you another example, lets use a hip throw. You can find the hip throw in Freestyle wrestling, Greco Wrestling, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Sambo, Mongolian Wrestling, Icelandic wrestling, swedish wrestling, and Chinese wrestling, just to name a few. But, the Delivery System for the hip throw, or 'hip toss' always remains the same. The mechanics of the move are essentially, always the same, a back step, level change, hip bump, and toss. Why? Because there is a proper way to do it. And every Art that trains Alive in throwing has found it.

    I could go on and on with examples, but hopefully you see the point. Without the delivery system you cannot become familiar with the range, and thus you cannot effectivly realize the goal of JKD, to become effective at all ranges.


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    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
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  9. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2007 4:01am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey
    Quoting Matt Thornton is a bit like asking a customer if they're sure all their computer's cables are connected: Most will roll their eyes because, of course, they did this hours ago, they didn't wait twenty minutes on hold to have their intelligence insulted, thank you very much.

    But it's not that rare for the solution to the call to be exactly that.

    You are that customer, cullion.
    Hedge I don't understand what you are trying to say.
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  10. Tomas Drgon is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2007 10:09am


     Style: n/a

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Tom has got it right with "cleaning up the house". That's one thing. But is it enough?

    Most combat styles worth anything are consistently good in training at least one aspect of fighting. Something that can consistently be done against a fully resisting opponent. Wrestling, judo, shuishiao have the throws, JJ has got teh armbar, boxing has the punches, etc. What is it that stands out in _ing _un? I have been asking this question for a decade now and have yet to hear a straightforward answer. Trapping? We all know it really isn't there or it is far from being reasonably practical. Sticking? Centerline theory? What is it. Please define it for me in one concise sentence.

    Or is it just a different and may be less effective way of doing things?

    And for the record, I have judo and BJJ in my profile because that's what I've been doing for the last 10 years or so. I used to be a chunner and a KF guy before, with a pony tail and all. And I value my KF training.

    Tomas
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