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  1. Southpaw is offline
    Southpaw's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2007 11:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Attention Wing Chun teachers...how to save wing chun

    Fighting is interesting. The thing is you have to do it to get good at it.

    I know a small handful of great wing chun fighters. Fucking tough guys. But they were tough guys before they trained wing chun...and they would be tough guys if they never trained wing chun, and instead trained karate, or some other martial art. Or didn't train anything at all. They are just tough.

    Generally speaking, in my experiences, wing chun does not produce tough guys out of nothing. You can have the best technique in the world, but if you are not tough, and only training hard can make you tough, you have a really good chance of getting your ass kicked.

    Getting slapped on the forearm or banged on the shin doesn't really make you tough. It can make you hard, but tough is mental as much as it is physical.

    For the past 13 months, I've been training at a Royce Gracie BJJ school w/ an MMA team. I've trained with a lot of guys who are tough. The art of BJJ (or MT) doesn't necessarily make them tough, the way they train makes them tough. They train to fight. They know they are going to fight, they know people are going to try to beat them, and they train for it. They come in on their days off to fight. When class is over, they stay and fight. When one of their training partners is getting ready for a fight, the rest of them line up to train him to fight. See the trend?

    I disagree w/ the idea that training striking drills in wing chun is (in regards to "reality" of training) the same as rolling or wrestling up to submitting. Two people can "fight" at 100% strength and speed in bjj, up until submission. In striking, you can't throw a punch as hard or fast as you can in drills, or with feints and misdirection...that's just not how most drills work.

    If you trained bjj at 3/4's speed for one year, and then went to a tournament, you would get crushed because your ass is moving too slow.

    Same with wing chun. The vast majority of the time it is trained at 3/4'rs speed, thus, when you have to use it in a fight, you're fucked. The way it is trained by the VAST majority of people who train it is unrealistic, and not functional against a trained or really tough opponent.

    Wing Chun striking drills are not random, are often predictable and follow set patterns, and are very rarely done at full speed. Sparring in wing chun is typically reserved for "senior students," and even then is rarely at 100% effort.

    In order to make a striking art work, you have to train it at full speed, to develop the power and reflexes to work at full speed (see boxing for reference).

    For this reason, I would like to propose that all wing chun schools devote the last 1/2 hour of class to full contact sparring.

    Spend whatever class time you think necessary for forms, power training, techniques, and drills, but make sure that every day you allow 1/2 hour at the end for sparring. If you are worried about losing students, make it optional. Let people who don't want to get kicked and punched leave. They will pay your rent, but will never be able to fight.

    If you ever want wing chun to be taken seriously, then stop propagating some bullshit idea of training and force people to train to fight. Train people to be tough.


    Those of you who are students, don't settle for half-ass training. If you like your school, even though they don't spar much, go find other ways outside of your school to practice fighting. Get together w/ your buddies and beat the **** out of each other. Learn how to take a punch. Learn that getting punched sucks (but still sometimes feels good). Learn what it means to keep fighting when you are hurt and want to quit.

    Just learn how to fucking fight.
  2. ty5 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Aug 2006
    Location
    North of the River Thames
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    378

    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 5:30pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am going to email that to my Sifu :cool:

    Though I think he has been secretly reading this website anyway, as one month ago sparring was suddenly introduced and going by some of the more longer terms students reaction's when I punch them it was not something that was done before. Could still go a bit further, no punches to the head at present, that could be solved easily by using some decent boxing head guards (which I will be suggesting to him).

    And the other students really suck at both giving and taking kicks (I used to do kick boxing so am a bit more used to it but still out of practise), so pretty obvious they have never sparred in a full on way before. But sifu seems to be racking up the pressure, so mad respects to him. I may ache for a few days afterwoods, but what good fun while it is going on.
  3. Abusivemelon is offline
    Abusivemelon's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    UK
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 6:11pm


     Style: Lethargy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was expecting a big slogan along the lines of "give up and do boxing." This has always interested me, why save? Why not cut your losses and move to that which has been proven to be practical?
    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101
    Dude, whassup? Did they freeze your dick then accidentally use it to cool down a thimble full of water? Or, did you mis-spell crayonist? You know, the guy who makes sure the wax crayons you use aren't too sharp in case you decide to do the decent thing and kill yourself.
    Training log. Here

    JFS vs The Villain here
  4. AAAhmed46 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta,
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    1,996

    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 9:15pm


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Abusivemelon
    I was expecting a big slogan along the lines of "give up and do boxing." This has always interested me, why save? Why not cut your losses and move to that which has been proven to be practical?

    Maybe there is something in there that you find is worth saving?
  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
    Dr._Tzun_Tzu's Avatar

    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    California
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2007 11:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is boxing.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 1:14pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    It is boxing.
    It is not boxing as in the sport and you know this. Put something stupid in there and watch what happens.
  7. Abusivemelon is offline
    Abusivemelon's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    UK
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 2:07pm


     Style: Lethargy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAhmed46
    Maybe there is something in there that you find is worth saving?
    In wing chun? Few examples please? The history can be documented and if you practise it for fun then go for it, but unless there is nothing else available inserting alive training into kata and all the other bollocks is like trying to put gum drops in sewage.
    Quote Originally Posted by sochin101
    Dude, whassup? Did they freeze your dick then accidentally use it to cool down a thimble full of water? Or, did you mis-spell crayonist? You know, the guy who makes sure the wax crayons you use aren't too sharp in case you decide to do the decent thing and kill yourself.
    Training log. Here

    JFS vs The Villain here
  8. Permalost is online now
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

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    Nov 2012
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    San Diego
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    12,489

    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 7:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the main problem is that it is so often promoted as something it is not. For what it is, I think its kind of cool and I use some lifted stuff when I spar sometimes. As a martial art that is constantly touted as the ideal choice for women, and that has a solid ground game, and that is the ultimate martial art, and that produces fighters that could own MMA fighters but they choose not to, it fails pretty bad.
  9. Askari Hodari is offline

    Registered Member

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    Location
    Chicago, IL
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 8:20pm


     Style: CLF, Capoeira, etc.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any thoughs on Alan Orr's WC school? Don't they fight full-contact?
  10. Fa Jing is offline

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    Apr 2004
    Location
    Missouri
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    324

    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 11:57pm


     Style: Brazilian JiuJitsu, Wing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i guess i kindof got the best of both worlds with our schools WC. We do chi sau, and one,2,3, step drills but they are with MMA style gloves at full speed hell man we do 1 hour of cardio before the WC practice even starts. My instructor is an amature MMA fighter.
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