Posted On:8/09/2007 2:09pm
Originally Posted by lkfmdc
a lot of truly depressing stuff going on in the Chinese martial arts community over the years. My teacher was good friends with another well known souther stylist, and I hung around his school. He went in the back to answer the phone, and he left his senior student in charge. A guy came in for information and the senior student told him "this is kung fu, we only do kicks and punches, no grappling".... the bigger irony was that while he was saying that, the people in class were working on a part of the form that is actually a forward trip ... eh gads, kung fu sux now
Well, as chuan pointed out, you don't do the r341 d34d1y 13337 kung fu.
Originally Posted by doofaloofa
Posted On:8/13/2007 7:31am
Posted On:8/14/2007 4:08pm
Style: ti da shuai na
Speaking of the real kungfu, a poster at Cartmell's board (can you tell I've been lurking over there a bit?) recently asked about his cancellation of pure bagua classes:
Tim, is your school primarily concerned with fighting, as opposed to teaching Martial Arts? I want to learn some CMA like Taiji and/or Bagua. But now I see you don't even teach the Bagua anymore.
My eyes sorted of bugged out when I read the above question, but Tim's answer is more or less perfect:
My school is primarily concerned with martial arts, the nature of which is learning how to fight.
If only this was said more often in CMA circles...
Posted On:8/14/2007 4:13pm
He has his quirks but, this guy knows his ****. A BJJ Black Belt and actually trained in China.
So, has anyone clicked that link to get the *cough* Jack Dempsey book??????
The one that describes Xingyi the best way I have ever read from a Boxing Stand point?
Posted On:8/14/2007 6:47pm
Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website
Subject: tired debate
I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.
Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).
You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.
Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.
Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco.
My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.
In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.
Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain that's involved in earning that strong base.
continued. . . . .
I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.
In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think that's fine. But that's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.
Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand.
A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.
Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They are part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cuting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.
This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them.
Posted On:8/14/2007 7:25pm
Style: kung fu
I'd have to agree, the sports paradigm is good for building self esteem. A lot of larping stuff tends to dent it in some instances.
Posted On:9/01/2007 4:57pm
Okay I'm going to continue adding posts that explain good differences in Martial arts.
Some will be funny, scathing or just boring.
All, IMO, will be informative.
With my arrogance we will start with me.
My definition of FAJING
Originally Posted by IIF
I disagree because fajing is valid. To me Fajing=short power. If you find good books it is described as this, It is the Chi Fairies who make it stupid and mystical. Fajing takes no time to build it is about timing and body mechanics as you said.
It isn't about conjuring an energy field and transferring it to your opponent. That is what Chi faries tell you when they can't make it work.
Here are a couple of representation of the real 1 inch/short power in action.
Check out Ali vs. Liston 2 :
Bernard Hopkins vs. Oscar De La Hoya:
Fajing equals hitting someone, in just the right spot, with proper mechanics, to instantly stop a confrontation. That is it.
It can be trained anywhere by anyone.
IMA supposedly focused exclusively on harnessing this technique and could do it at will (conjecture).
That is it. No mumbo jumbo plus, not only produced by Chi fairies.
Also, real IMAers will tell you it takes hard work just like any "sport."
Last edited by It is Fake; 9/07/2008 9:47am at .
Posted On:9/01/2007 5:07pm
This is a post from Boyd.
I culled it when I first became a Mod. I was listening to CMAers instead of forging my own Mod path.
Originally Posted by Boyd
Actually, I was going to wait a few hours to make my next post to give you ample opportunity to inform me that, contary to the contents of my previous statement, passively pulling guard is NOT an effective tactic against multiple opponents. But we can just assume that you did, or made some equally absurd non-sequiter and move on with our lives. You can thank me later.
Contemporary attitudes of BJJ and its practioners vary wildly from person to person, but among some circles--namely psuedo-progressive hyperapologetic traditionalists TOTALLY NOT NAMING NAME THOUGH--there tend to arise certain misconceptions both about the nature of BJJ (and, as Cullion himself as made amply clear, BJJ and not submission grappling, wrestling, or Judo). These mentalities always follow a lovely, circular three-act progression, a delicate arc resembling a rainbow or the crest of a single drop of dew, perched precariously atop a sliver of glass in the early New England morn.
ACT I: SKEPTICISM
Having been introduced to the key players, setting, and plot, the Psuedo-Progressive Hyper Apologetic Traditionalist (or P-PHAT, for short), will by now begin to make judgements about both the quality and intensity of training. Once he read on Bullshido.net that BJJ usually doesn't allow leglocks and begins to already shrewdly discover chinks in its armor. On another instance, he reads about how wrestlers tend to be in much better shape than BJJers. And they train in gi's! Who wears a gi in real life??? "Ah-HA!" he muses aloud, stroking his neckbeard. "I'll bet they must go home crying to their enormous framed pictures of Royce Gracie who they no doubt talk about every day in class when they think about that!" Fully equipped with the facts (and not a single actual BJJ class under his belt), P-PHAT can now make educated guesses that BJJ must be really easy and all about pulling guard and jutting out your chin and exposing your legs and whining about rulesets.
ACT II: RELUCTANT ASCENSION
Having made several hundred posts on Internet martial arts boards berating those vile Wastrels of ill repute that make snap judgements about Chinese Martial Arts, P-PHAT has been inadvertantly exposed to an equal number of pro-BJJ posts. He does not question BJJ's efficacy in the ring or on the street, for that would be bourgeoise, merely the training methodology. He points out that BJJ does not deal with slams, or cervical locks, or heel hooks, or (close tab: www.bullshido.net/forums. open tab: CBJJ rules) poor sportsmanship, whereas an art like, say, catch wrestling incorporates all those techniques plus their Americana is, like, a wrist lock also. But being ever open-minded, P-PHAT opts to visit a BJJ school, because "it'll blend well with my Xing Yi which is really more like boxing and we have people come in and do Kali seminars".
ACT III: P-PHAT JOINS BJJ, GOES AWOL ON CMA
During his first lesson, P-PHAT asks several passive-aggressive questions about guard slamming and knee compressions. He is shocked to discover the school has several students competing in MMA, that Judo blackbelts and collegiate wrestlers intermingle with the student body and often stay after to work takedowns. This isn't BJJ at all!!!!!!!!!!!! "But Jeff," he queries, feeling visibly uncomfortable calling an instructor by their first name, "What about the Aliveness Brigade? What about all those people that don't train MMA, that don't box? Aren't they just total pussies?"
"I don't know what an Aliveness Brigade is, but see if you can stay in that three-stripe white belt's guard for two minutes without getting swept. Then we'll talk about striking from the guard."
P-PHAT complies, and using the principles he was taught in Xing Yi, grunts loudly and wiggles his elbows into his opponent's thighs. He is summarily swept and armbarred.
Now, most people could be complete retards and have this lesson banged into their heads over the course of several weeks. God knows I've met enough people that say "I could just punch you" from here and then get magically triangled thirty seconds later. But P-PHAT....he's a pretty slick fellow. And after having a 230-pound man drive his knee directly into his diaphragm for three agonizing minutes, he realizes that even in sport Jiu Jitsu, relief is not "always a tap away. " And he realizes that, after several sessions of having his limbs tied into knots and a coarse gi raked across his face and a fat man sitting on his head and his arms cranked in funny places that, indeed, not only is this tougher than it looks, but exquisitely "alive".
EPILOGUE: THIS DOESN'T COUNT AS AN ACT
After his breakfast epiphanies giggle snort, P-PHAT renounces his old ways. Although he continues taking Xing Yi, he takes pride in saying he does Jiu Jitsu. Having interacted with living, breathing BJJers, he understands that few, if any, consider sport Jiu-Jitsu equivalent to MMA. Those that train MMA consider it a valuable aspect of their training. And the whole street vs. sport thing...well, that's just asinine.
It was in the horrible trollshido thread called "our first Kung Fu Challenge."
Posted On:9/28/2007 6:35pm
by Antonio Graceffo
practicing techniques on a punchOne of my tuishou teammates threw a punch and held it in the air, while the other one was practicing different counters.
I really got excited, wanting to go over and join in, to show them some of the techniques I would use. But I didn't know if this would be an insult to my teacher. So I waited. Finally, after they had practiced the silliest, most ineffectual techniques for a long while, they called me over and asked me to play.
I showed them some arm drags and block-and-throws I had learned from Sifu David Collins in American kung fu. But in real fighting I never use these techniques. I just circle, take blows on my arms, and counter. I don't understand why practitioners of karate, taekwondo, aikido and kung fu waste so much time dealing with, "What if the man throws a punch at me?" In boxing, it is pretty much a given that the guy will throw punches at you. All we do in boxing is move three inches to the left or right, and counter.
Most martial arts concentrate on a particular kind of fighting, such as jiu-jitsu (which uses throwing from a punch or other self-defense situation), judo (which uses throwing from the hip), aikido (which uses joint locks), and taekwondo (which uses high kicks), boxing (which uses punches), and san da (which combines boxing and kicking). But kung fu is very unique in that it is the one martial art containing elements of all of these arts. Kung fu is completely comprehensive, possessing techniques rarely found in non-Chinese arts, such as the internal martial arts and inner strength.
Leung Ting's large classSo, in a kung fu self-defense lesson one could expect to find elements of any or all of the other martial arts, with students learning blocks, throws, kicks, strikes, and joint manipulations.
The typical self-defense class has the teacher standing at the front of the room, inflicting some torture on a student, such as putting him in a headlock or a full nelson, and explaining, "If your opponent does this, you should do that." He then slowly beats the tar out of the student, and everyone claps.
Although kung fu contains any number of techniques which could be deadly or at least extremely useful in self-defense situations the body of techniques taught under the label of "self-defense" would be largely useless in actual self-defense situations on the street.
For example, in mixed martial arts competitions as well as professional san da and san shou, the throws always come from catching kicks. In reality, it is nearly impossible to throw a man from his arm in a fight, which is the weakness of stand-up Japanese jiu-jitsu. In the minds of most competitors, traditional jiu-jitsu is like an appendix, the vestigial organ of martial arts. The same goes for kung fu self-defense technique where you catch the attacker's arm and throw him. You can throw by catching a kick, but throwing by catching a punch is nearly impossible.
When an MMA striker gets too close to an MMA grappler, he is usually taken down with a shoot. This means the grappler launches himself at the midsection of the attacker, and takes him down by grabbing him around the hips and throwing him. The shoot is very similar to many of the throws used in san da and shuai jiao. You can shoot the waist, and then lift and throw, suplex, body slam, and fireman's carry. You could also kick the attacker's base leg out from under him, sweeping. Or maybe you could do a combination of both. Use your shoulder to push his weight onto one leg, and then sweep that leg. Just like in san da, when you try this move on a real attacker, be sure to protect your face by pegging your head tight up against the attacker's side so he cannot strike you. Also, the secret to a good throw is that you must have your opponent tight up against you. There should be no space between you and your opponent. If there is space, all you will succeed in doing is pushing him away from you.
training to fight
Joint locks and manipulations can be extremely painful. We have all had a friend or an instructor say, "Let me show you this new hold I learned," after which he twists your limbs into a pretzel, bending them in impossible angles. You would definitely submit if someone did a joint manipulation on you. But with the heat and adrenaline of a fight, it is very difficult to get a manipulation on someone. Again, I look at MMA competition as a good test of what will and what will not work. After countless hours of TV viewing (and over-eating snack-foods), I have never seen a fight ended by a standing manipulation.
Back at tuishou, several of my teammates seemed impressed with the techniques I showed them. But one guy looked skeptical. Unfortunately, he was one of the ones who only spoke Taiwanese.
From what I could tell, the skeptical guy seemed to be saying I couldn't use any of my techniques in a real fight. I have had countless matches in my life in dojos, boxing gyms, and parking lots. These guys had probably not even had one. But I didn't get angry. I just listened, and tried to find meaning in what he was saying. Finally, he backed off about ten feet and said something in Taiwanese. I didn't know if he was challenging me to a fight or asking me what I would do in this situation. Before I could get clarification, he ducked his head and ran at me. This really surprised me, since this wasn't a tai chi technique as far as I know. But he looked like he meant business.
As he was so far away, I had a few seconds to decide what to do. If I knew for sure that we were fighting, I would wait and kick him in the face. Then I thought, no, I would wait and hit him in the face with my shin. But I wasn't sure if it was a fight, so I didn't want to hurt him. So, I waited. When he got closer, I thought. I'll hit him in the face with my knee. Or, I will grab the back of his head and hit him in the face with my knee, several times. Or, I could uppercut him.
Since he was running at me full force, any of these techniques would have knocked him out, if not killed him. But still I didn't know if this was a real fight. So I decided to take him down without hurting him. I waited until the last second. Then I caught his head in a guillotine choke. I rolled backwards, using his force to roll us both, one complete circle. When we came to a rest, I still had his throat in a choke hold. But now he was laying face down, belly down on the ground, and I was on top of him. My forearm was cutting into his throat, and my chest was on top of his head. I sprawled my legs, so he couldn't grab them, and put all my weight on the back of his head. Then I cranked on his neck. He tapped immediately.
That was the end of the fight. I didn't know if I did the right thing. I didn't know if it had been a real fight. I have no idea what had happened, and I never will.
In reality, I would probably never use any of those techniques for self-defense. My first kung fu teacher, David Collins, was extremely practical about self-defense. He didn't like flashy or fancy techniques. They are hard to teach and hard to learn to do properly. Using a fancy technique for self-defense is like taking a very complicated, highly sensitive computerized device on your whitewater rafting adventure trip. The odds of it failing you are very high.
So, self-defense techniques should be kept simple.
The next point one I live by is that we can only be good at those things which we practice, again and again. An old martial arts saying goes, "I am not afraid of the thousand kicks you practiced one time, but of the one kick you have practiced a thousand times." The same goes for self-defense. The self-defense situation is highly stressful, and it materializes out of nowhere when you least expect it. You will have no time to think. So, your reactions must be instinctual and lightning fast, relying on muscle memory rather than cerebral memory.
Muscle memory is a training concept whereby you do a move, correctly, thousands of times, until your muscles fail. At that point, the soreness and fatigue are imprinted on the muscles. The next day, you will know that you are doing the move correctly if you feel the exact pain from the previous day. If you do a kick until failure, the next day when you do the same kick, even slowly, you will feel pain all through the range of motion. If there are points where you don't feel pain, this means that you have gone outside of the correct range of motion. You are doing the kick incorrectly. And you must adjust your movements so that you stay within the range of movement which causes excruciating pain.
The student should circle the floor-to-ceiling bag as if it were an opponent Training correctly can be an exercise in masochism.
If you don't use muscle memory in your training, you should. But even if you haven't used muscle memory, you are probably using repetition. Take an analysis of your training routine, and decide which techniques you do the most frequently. For example, many people spend hours kicking or punching a bag. Other people spend more time doing forms. If you are a forms practitioner, analyze the forms. Determine which forms you do most, and which techniques occur most frequently in your forms.
Once you have found the three or four moves which you practice most, make these your self-defense moves. These are the moves that will most likely occur in your body when you are attacked. As Bruce Lee said, "I don't hit. It hits."
"It is not the quantity of what you know, Daniel-San, but the quality." A favorite quote from a cheesy movie, THE KARATE KID. I can't even sit through the film today. But when I was thirteen, it really motivated me. And the wisdom of Mr. Miaggi still rings true, even if I can't stop picturing him as Arnold on "Happy Days."
David Collins used to say, "Master one kick, one punch, one throw, and one block, and you will be unbeatable."
The three or four techniques you choose to master can be used for self-defense, no matter what the scenario. Focusing on my love of kickboxing, David Collins once showed me how my best technique a right-cross could be used in any self-defense situation.
"The opponent comes running at you from across the room," said David Collins. "What do you do?"
"A slide and trip," I suggested.
Self defense is arguably the most important aspect of fighting."No, a right cross. The man is running straight into it, and it would probably kill him."
The next scenario, "A man grabs your arm, and tries to pull you into an alley or a vehicle. What do you do?"
"That twisting thing where I break his arm," I said.
"No, a right cross. If he is holding your arm, his face is wide open, and you can knock him out."
David Collins presented yet another scenario: "An opponent grabs the front of your shirt."
"Right cross," I said, getting the message.
"He pushes you."
Ok, you get the picture. Your best technique can be used in virtually any self-defense situation. And, particularly if you limit yourself to two or three techniques, they can be modified and adapted to any situation. A tai chi push can be used in any situation where a man is front of you or on the side. A simple hip-throw can be done from any angle to counter any attack or wrestling hold someone would put on you, even if he is behind you. A simple, low, roundhouse kick to the side of the knee can be used from nearly any position and in any situation.
1. Practice quality, not quantity.
2. KISS (keep it simple, stupid).
3. Your best technique is your best bet for self-defense.
4. Practice until you collapse.
5. Watch more TV.
Posted On:9/28/2007 6:37pm
It is a pretty good perspective from a kung fu guy. Yes, just ignore I kill and the deadly and I like what it has to say.
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