Posted On:12/13/2009 7:17pm
That little bit needs to posted on all cry baby Tai Chi forums.
Posted On:12/20/2009 6:57pm
Style: ti da shuai na
Originally Posted by It is Fake
That little bit needs to posted on all cry baby Tai Chi forums.
No doubt. I've gotten into so many arguments over the same things he says in that interview. Now I'll post a couple more from that same blog...
Last edited by Jack Rusher; 12/20/2009 7:08pm at .
“Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
Posted On:12/20/2009 7:08pm
A nice interview regarding pre-simplification Yang taiji dating from Yang Luchan's time at the palace in Beijing (when they still did small, medium and large frame, Chang Quan, and so on):
Wang Lanting was ... responsible for the security of [ Prince Duan's ] House; Fu Zhou was a Manchu general with a very solid foundation in martial arts. Both of these men only became Yang Luchan’s disciples after losing to him in several challenges.
[ ... ]
You have to take the historical background into account as well when thinking about Yang Chengfu’s promulgation of the 85 set. 3 generations of the Yangs all taught within the mansions of the Manchu princes. After the fall of the Qing dynasty, the princes quickly fell from grace, and so the Yangs found themselves having to teach commoners to make a living. And so they simplified their public form to make it easier to learn. Another reason for the changes was that they didn’t want to teach the full original system to the public.
I wanted to compare and analyse the public 85 set against what I’d learnt, [ ... ] After I had learnt the 85 set, I could see traces of the original sets [ ... ] a lot of the hand techniques [ shoufa ] and body requirements [ shenfa ] of Wu style, Hao style and Sun style all preserve traces of early Yang style as passed down to us in Fu Nei Pai.
[ ... ]
The large frame and old frame are like drills in training: they’re to train fitness and tactics,
[ ... ]
In our system, there are only 37 postures in our long boxing, 37 ‘moves’ or small ‘combos’. Each ‘combo’ is a unit that can be practiced by itself. The 37 moves can also be combined at will. [ See the first post in this thread for more on this. ]
Many teachers split up the movements of the form in order to make it easier to teach. This is a teaching method which can make things easier for students, but actually applying these ’split out’ components of the form in combat is very difficult, which is why our system has these 30 individual ‘moves’. In the old days, they used to be called dan cao shou. These sanshou moves are a bridge from taiji forms practice into combat.
Posted On:12/20/2009 7:44pm
In this post, I quote an interview with Zhao Daoxin, who:
Originally Posted by Jack Skellington
The fighter they point out as having been the youngest of the finalists, Zhao Daoxin, studied under Zhang Zhao-Dong (xingyi + bagua/shuaijiao), Wu Yi Hui (founder liuhebafa), and Wang Xiangzhai (founder of yiquan).
... more recently, in a piece on the history of Yiquan, I ran into this reference to him:
(Wang Xiangzhai’s disciple and champion boxer) Bu Enfu once mentioned M Wang and his disciples in conversation with Liu Pulei, saying “I don’t dare mess with [Yao] Zongxun and [Zhao] Daoxin, with the rest of them, if they stay away I can hit them, if they come in close I can throw them.”
Posted On:12/21/2009 9:54am
OK, last one for awhile. From a piece about Li Xuzhou's Song style Xingyi:
The xingyi system passed down by Li includes a lot of neigong and sanshou from bagua, taiji, tongbei and shaolin, most of which was acquired through challenges against other masters. As a result, Li’s xingyi has preserved much of the original fighting value of traditional Chinese martial arts. It could even be called a repository of traditional fighting techniques. He not only practiced what he preached, he also encouraged his disciples to familiarise themselves with other arts, and to test what they had learned from him. Most of his disciples had learnt other arts before studying with him, in fact a good many had only become his disciples after being bested by him in challenges.
... measuring fighting ability by fighting, encouraging crosstraining, &c.
In his own teaching, he never used metaphysical terminology. The drills and exercises he taught were judged in terms of their effectiveness and he only passed on fighting techniques that had been proven in combat. He often said “If the teacher knows why he does what he does, the student will naturally remember clearly”. His disciples followed in his approach: they are very practical and never talk about any mysterious powers. They believe that practicing neigong should give you great reserves of energy, build a sturdy body, and lead to great agility and power in combat. As Li often said, “You can tell who’s practiced neigong and who hasn’t, there’s a noticeable difference”.
... practicality, rejection of mysticism, explanation of nei gong as a kind of deep conditioning.
Li Xuzhou emphasised applicability in his teaching – in his view, practice was for use, you should practice techniques as you would use them, he strongly resisted the trend of separation of practice and actual usage. As a result, all of his disciples were skilled in combat, and preserved to a large degree the combat ability of traditional chinese martial arts.
... "you fight like you train."
Posted On:3/09/2010 10:38am
Thught this should be save here in this thread
"People often say that ‘Xingyi’, ‘Taiji’, ‘Bagua’ and ‘Tongbei’ are internal styles, I do not know how the names of internal and external came about, so I cannot comment on that."
"As masters of the original ‘Taijiquan’, I should recommend the Yang brothers Shaohou and Chengfu. They are also old friends of mine, thus I know that this boxing really has some knowledge of mechanics, but out of one hundred persons not even one gains its essence, and even if one can gain it, it is still one-sided, because the basic skills of intuitive perception already died out a long time ago, thus their lower bodies have no real strength to speak of. Originally this boxing consisted of three fists, also called the “old three cuts”, Mr. Wang Zongyue changed it into “thirteen postures”, and it was later changed into as much as one hundred and forty or fifty postures, this is the major reason for the distortion.
For health preservation, it restrains the spirit and mettle, and brings discomfort to the practitioner. For combat, it harms the practitioner’s limbs and trunk, and causes the useful body to become a mechanical and stiff thing, it also disturbs the student’s nerves, and is nothing more than wasting one’s time. As for its method of training, a punch with a fist here, a slap with the palm there, a kick to the left, and another one to the right, that is pitiful and laughable.
As for dealing with an enemy in a fight, against a master-hand, please do not even consider it, if the adversary is not stiff and sluggish, even the famous masters of this boxing have no chance to apply their skills. These abuses are so big that ‘Taijiquan’ might soon become just a mere form comparable to a chess manual. For the last twenty years, most people who have studied this boxing have not been able to differentiate right and wrong, even if someone has been able to differentiate them, he has not been capable of putting it into practice. As for common students, most of them use their ears instead of their eyes.
So ruined is this boxing that it has become useless, this is really deplorable. I wish that the powerful members of this school would promptly and strictly clean it up, and attempt to develop it in the future. When the day of success comes, they will be held as the bosom friends of all the boxing fans. I dare to say that I understand ‘Taijiquan’ deeply, those who do not agree, can notify me or lay the blame on me, only the wise ones might understand. At the same time, I suppose those who have really gained something in their study of ‘Taijiquan’, when they read this, they will nod in agreement and cannot help laughing."
"‘Tongbeiquan’ is popular in northern China , especially in Beijing . The practitioners I have met were mostly out of shape, however, some were also holding a theory that was close to being right, but when checking their skills, they were very far from it. "
"The boxing arts of our nation are in a chaotic state, thus the people cannot know what course to take. Summed up, they have abandoned the quintessence and kept only the scum, nothing more. Although the martial arts of Japan and the boxing of Western Europe are one-sided, they all have their original points. In comparison to an ordinary boxer of our nation, they are countless miles ahead."
"All learning in the world depends on comparison, only that way can good and bad be distinguished, otherwise every school will claim to be right, and the laymen will have difficulties distinguishing right and wrong. The correctness of boxing cannot be judged merely by the criterion of victory or defeat, it must be judged by whether it is reasonable and suitable to the human needs or not. What is reasonable is achieving comfort, gaining strength, and getting zest into one’s life. If one does not achieve comfort, gain strength, and if the study does not bring zest into one’s life, then it cannot be called boxing.
Whether one knows of the history of boxing or not does not matter at all, one should only see whether there is any value in regard to learning and whether it accords with the requirements of life. But speaking of the combat science of our nation, it has a centuries-old history. It began revealing its brilliance in the Warring States Period (403 BC – 221 BC), and gradually advanced and evolved. During the times of the Tang and Song dynasties, boxing started to turn into technical skills and different styles started to evolve. During the Yuan, Ming, and early Qing dynasties, the different schools were most popular.
There were very many practitioners, and only because their strength, skill, and attainments were different and some being wise and others stupid, boxing broke into different schools, each claiming its teachings as correct. Those schools are namely what are now called the various styles. During the reigns of Kangxi and Yongzheng of the Qing dynasty (1662 – 1735), firearms were not yet prevalent. The emperors feared that the martial arts would be used against the government, therefore they wanted to destroy them for good and so that they could never recover.
Therefore they started to influence the people to think highly of the civil arts and look down upon everything martial. On one hand they advocated flying immortal swordsmen and taught the mystical on purpose, on the other hand they praised the boxing forms and fixed techniques in order to lead the martial arts astray. The middle road and the great Tao could not be asked about, and they used opera and storybooks to serve as their tools of propaganda. Furthermore they made the people who practised martial arts to be despised by the scholar-bureaucrats, so the situation went from bad to even worse. All kinds of ugly performances emerged, what a great pity and tragedy.
Luckily our combat science predecessors secretly had successors, and they succeeded in having a gleam of light survive. Although training halls were set up all over the country to advocate the martial arts during the last twenty years, the more they were advocated, the sooner they would be lost, never being able to return to the right path of combat science. In fact, learning boxing is not difficult, but because the brains of the ordinary people are tormented by the storybooks, and furthermore, because the boxers of modern times mostly do it for living, the combat science is completely at loss. Even if some people are conscious of that, they are still too ashamed to study from others, and thus have no way out.
During the last half of the year, the other boxers have come to me to compare their skills in combat. I will not point out who they were, in order to let them keep their ways of making a living. Now they mostly understand that they were wrong, but why do they not agree to come and discuss the martial arts openly, and furthermore, why are they not willing to compare their skills in combat, in order to improve their learning? On the contrary, they go against their conscience and claim others to be wrong. They do nothing but secretly create absurd tales, and still they pretend being ignorant of those tales. What do they do that for? As for the non-professional martial artists, they want to become mysterious boxers by creating these tales, being like theatregoers not well versed in drama, they are not able to do anything but throw punches at random to show off their skills.
That is really something to be despised. In case my words are considered erroneous, can the non-professional boxing students agree to grant me instruction? Furthermore, I wish to have small friendly tests of skills in combat, and even if the people who come to me have no martial skills at all, I will not insult them, and I will not tell about them to other people in order not to harm their business. If one cannot come to visit me to grant me instruction, then please tell me the place and the time, and I will come to pay my respects on time. If one has even a tiny strong point, I will do my utmost to give him publicity, and if one has no strong points at all, I will keep my mouth shut. If one always considers oneself as a top boxer behind closed doors, that is not worth a penny."
Posted On:3/09/2010 10:16pm
Thanks to lkfmdc:
Here is an active link to the entire interview.
An Interview with Mr Wang Xiangzhai
This article is long as hell but, the guy has some really good points.
Wang Xiangzhai: The boxing arts of our nation are in a chaotic state, thus the people cannot know what course to take. Summed up, they have abandoned the quintessence and kept only the scum, nothing more. Although the martial arts of Japan and the boxing of Western Europe are one-sided, they all have their original points. In comparison to an ordinary boxer of our nation, they are countless miles ahead. The people should be very ashamed of this. So we should clean up and carry forward the old knowledge. Except for us, who else is there left to do it? Despite my meagreness, I call for action to advocate it, only for this purpose.
Posted On:5/16/2010 12:11pm
Due to a semantic debate I found some interesting comments by Tim Cartmell.
It was birthed from this thread with some very interesting comments of no sparring in Tai Chi:
When asked about Tai chi Sparring:
Originally Posted by TM
Both of my primary Yang style teachers advocated sparring. There were two basic formats. One method was a free method of "push hands" sparring that started at contact and allowed pushes, pulls, sweeps, throws and takedowns and chin na techniques. The other method was regular "sparring," starting from a distance with all of the above techniques allowed including blows (we kept head contact light).
My belief is it is virtually impossible to learn how to apply your techniques for real without non-cooperative sparring (no matter what style you practice).
Originally Posted by TM
I would suggest looking into Judo for some practical self defense training (there will be plenty of sparring). The principles of Judo are virtually the same as those of Taijiquan.
The first link will make your head hurt and eyes bleed. Typical advanced students, internal external, sparring is detrimental, and you must wait to spar.
Last edited by It is Fake; 5/16/2010 12:16pm at .
Posted On:5/28/2010 5:42pm
Edited because, it was specifically directed at a particular person. Still, it adresses the Street vs Sport in a very succinct and understandable manner.
No BS MMA and Martial Arts - View Single Post - I have always been interested in Kenjutsu.
Originally Posted by Coach Josh
To even think that just because someone trains on a smooth floor they will not be able to perform in a rugged environment is just plain stupid.
Seriously the rules are there for the same reason that you can't kick in boxing so you can demonstrate your skill in that area.
The people who have trained competitive MA understand the pitfalls and limitations about their chosen MA. They know that they are training for a specific event with specific rules. They also know that those same skill sets can be used effectively in self defense or "real life situation". They also know that their techniques are not 100% because no technique is 100% effective 100% of the time. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.
To sit there and type knit picking **** about a style of MA because they choose to actual fight each other is just asinine.
Posted On:7/23/2010 10:23am
Donnie Yen’s Five Rules of Martial Arts Mastery
1. Turn your basic movements - regardless of style - into perfect jewels. If you accomplish this, you’ll have a good chance of becoming an advanced practitioner sooner than you may expect. Like good WuShu or even western boxing, extreme basic training is the only real secret for excellence.
2. Train your body athletically. Probably the most lacking aspect of modern practitioners, your overall physical condition, regardless of style - internal or external - is crucial to sustain long periods of often painful training.
3. Emphasize "fa jing" in your techniques. Top Western boxers exhibit fa jing as much as top Asian martial artists. Start with traditional Chinese styles to learn this crucial use of energy.
4. Strive for versatility and a wide exposure to different disciplines. After some years developing a specialty, force yourself to obtain at least intermediate skill in a few other styles completely different from yours.
5. Train for both combat and beauty of movement. Contrary to popular belief, a serious practitioner can achieve excellent fighting ability while looking fantastic. Always remember that top western boxers are as engaging to watch as contemporary WuShu athletes. Don’t be scared of one or the other.
Wow. Donnie has grown.
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